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Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday July 24, 2023 @04:46AM (#36844724)
I’m a 61-year-old software developer.

It’s been interesting (and infuriating), experiencing some of the conclusions that younger techs have reached about me, due to my gray hair.

I’m also a developer of Apple device software. That has resulted in even more abuse. There’s serious hate for Apple amongst techs.

Human nature likes pigeonholing other people into simple “sort buckets,” and we have many ways to do that. It actually takes conscious effort, to avoid it.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by sillysaurusx on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:33AM (#36845100)
Hey! 35yo dev here. If you could go back and give your 35yo self some advice, what would it be? (Feel free to make it specific to yourself; I’m just curious.)

You’re a bit of my hero since I aim to be a dev till at least 60. I barely survive Leetcode interviews now — in fact I can’t think of a single one I’ve passed. Having to interview at 60 plus sounds awful, mostly for the reasons you describe.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by jacquesm on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:54AM (#36845282)
My advice would be (if you're in it to make a living) to get out and move into finance.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by radicalbyte on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:40AM (#36845671)
How though? At least here (NL) the rewards aren't great until you get very senior, which is hard to do with a background in Software Engineering?
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by jacquesm on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:48AM (#36845743)
Hm, I'm in NL as well and made the switch 15 years ago, compared to what I made writing software I regret not doing it much earlier. Note that 'finance' is a pretty wide area, I would suggest to see if you can work your way into some VC fund at the associate level with that background.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by radicalbyte on Friday July 28, 2023 @11:18AM (#36908116)
Thanks. That's certainly worth looking into; I switched to freelancing a decade ago and am now at the ceiling as an Engineering Lead and despite still being very effective as a hands-on engineer (coding for 30 years does that) am far more effective in a more strategic role.

I have friends who work in the M&A world (doing due diligence, C-level advise etc) both here in NL (you'll probably know them) and in the US/CA (in identity/credentials), guess I should have a chat with them :-)

But first I'm going to spend a few months doing something good - seeing if we can actually fix interoperability in healthcare in the EU. Lots of interesting things happening in that space ;-)

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by hashtag-til on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:10AM (#36845401)
I've been thinking if I should mode from my soulless job in ML to a soulless job in finance.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by philipov on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:33AM (#36845617)
The "good" news is, pretty soon, they'll be the same thing!
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by sillysaurusx on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:14AM (#36845994)
Just wanted to chime in and say that your “soulless job in ML” comment is relatable, and your experience isn’t unique. I had one too. I saved up a lot of money from it, but by the end it nearly cost me my remaining passion.

A soulless job in finance is better if you like(d) ML at all, because then you can keep your interests separate from your job.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by jacquesm on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:23AM (#36846092)
> because then you can keep your interests separate from your job

Interesting! I never made that connection but now that you mention it it is obvious. Thanks.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by kybernetikos on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:44AM (#36846297)
> A soulless job in finance is better if you like(d) ML at all, because then you can keep your interests separate from your job.

I did read somewhere that for someone trying to write a book in their spare time, a job in editing is the worst possible thing to have for a similar reason.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by jxidjhdhdhdhfhf on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:11AM (#36846635)
I don't get it. Do you think developers will experience some AI related job losses and finance people will not?
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by hashtag-til on Monday July 24, 2023 @09:08AM (#36847370)
Well, for years now people have ben talking about a new AI bubble, that might burst at some point.

I've been in this area for a couple decades now and have seen technologies come and go, so I see my AI-related job now as just another generation of tools and making pretty sure that I keep my knowledge still valid in other non-AI related area in the tech space, so that I'm not a data-science/AI-framework-plumbing kind of person.

I keep an interest in standard C++ desktop development, which to me seem a safe harbour even time there is a collapse in some trendy technology.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by bovermyer on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:23AM (#36846790)
I don't think I hate anyone enough to advise them to get into finance as a profession.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:26AM (#36845539)
I've always been a big fan of open-mindedness, humility, self-discipline, completionism, personal integrity, and constant learning.

If you keep those going, you'll do well in almost everything.

I'm loath to give more specific advice, because the whole industry is experiencing a bit of a "sea change," right now, and I'm not sure that past performance is a good indicator of future results.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by musiciangames on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:45AM (#36847098)
My advice would be to find a niche where your business knowledge is your value, not your coding. Bonus if the niche is finance, because $$. Become a consultant not an employee. In this world, leet code is a liability. Always code assuming the next person to maintain it is a junior, or a psychopath who knows where you live.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by rmbyrro on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:36AM (#36845126)
> There’s serious hate for Apple amongst techs.

Really? Wow. My anecdotal experience is that most people in tech are blind fans of apple.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by alpaca128 on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:10AM (#36845400)
I think it varies a lot by where you live. In the US Apple seems to be much more popular, meanwhile where I live it's more seen as overpriced fashion brand for non-technical people. The few people in technical fields who actually use Macbooks tend to see it more as time-efficient alternative to Linux, at least that's my observation. I have met a lot of Apple haters in the past but not a single blind fan.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by EspressoGPT on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:19AM (#36846046)
Yeah, in the US it is the go-to standard for students and professionals, but in Europe, pseudo-elitist nerds or CS students taunt Apple for being a "too overpriced toy for non-technical people". That's how I know they don't have a clue about software engineering, lol.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by aleph_minus_one on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:11AM (#36846631)
> but in Europe, pseudo-elitist nerds or CS students taunt Apple for being a "too overpriced toy for non-technical people". That's how I know they don't have a clue about software engineering, lol.

In my experience ("filter bubble"), the central reason for the insane hate on Apple rather is that with the iPhone, Apple made the "golden cage" fashionable. When Microsoft attempted to implement similar measures in the past (keywords: Trusted/Trustworthy Computing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustworthy_computing), Palladium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computi...), Trusted Platform Module (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module), ...), a huge outcry among users, and a shitstorm against Microsoft happened.

The acceptance of the golden cage of the iPhone showed that an insane amount of users are willing to be enslaved in a golden cage, and thus all the data activism to keep users in control of their devices was just a paper tiger. The fact that these Apple fanbois actively sabotaged this activism by their buying decisions is in my opinion a very good reason for this insane hate.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:49AM (#36849901)
The issue is that the activists represent a real minority of users.

When we hang out in echo chambers, we start thinking that there are “a lot” of people that think like us.

Most folks aren’t technologically savvy. They don’t particularly want to be bothered by the “nitty gritty” of tech usership. They just want their tool to do what they want, without any fuss.

This has had a lot of terrible results. Tech moguls have made a lot of money, by taking advantage of this.

But it’s far older than smartphones. Demagogues have used this propensity for thousands of years, to keep most folks on the smelly end of the stick.

The refusal of tech activists to understand this, has, in my opinion, caused an enormous amount of damage.

People aren’t dumb, and we need to understand, and embrace that. Just because they don’t find tech as fascinating as we do, is no reason to dismiss them.

In fact, as I said, some rather rapacious tech robber barons understand this all too well.

Want to be effective? Make security and privacy easy to use. Otherwise, we’re just howling at the moon.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by shortrounddev2 on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:16AM (#36846695)
They're right, you know
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by EspressoGPT on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:53AM (#36858466)
No, they are dogmatic, zealos, and emotional about a ... computer.

I want a Unix system because I prefer that for programming, I want a laptop because I want to change between offices, and I want to get started asap and get my work done without having to worry about hardware compatibility too much, so I prefer macOS over Linux. Simple as that.

Yes, Apple is expensive, but my company pays that MacBook so I don't care about that either. I get a well-functioning Unix with great usability and nice specs, with hardware and software from the same manufacturer. It works for me, so it's ok for me.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by YSMLpT4b on Monday July 24, 2023 @09:56AM (#36848078)
Wow that's fascinating. Why do you think people from 44 different nations, dozens of different ethnic and language groups, collectively decided to hate apple?
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by lrvick on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:19AM (#36845006)
I would never judge you for your age. I would however judge you for willingly contributing to walled gardens.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by rmbyrro on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:40AM (#36845163)
I dislike Apple as well, but judging people just because they work with their software stack is... inappropriate?

May I ask how you make a living in modern society?

Lots of people contribute to walled gardens to produce the food you eat. Heck, the constructor of your roof literally contributed to your walled garden...

I don't think anyone has a choice, unless you go back 10,000 years and live like a hunter gatherer...

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by ilyt on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:51AM (#36845248)
> Lots of people contribute to walled gardens to produce the food you eat. Heck, the constructor of your roof literally contributed to your walled garden...

I don't think you know what walled garden means in software context.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by thatguymike on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:58AM (#36845317)
I don’t think you know what a metaphor means in a conversational context.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by uoaei on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:59AM (#36845324)
I think you're simply not asking yourself hard enough questions. I'm making a pivot away from "lol nothing matters so it's everyone for themselves" now largely because my values are not aligned with how I've engaged with society so far.

I reduce my burden on the environment by buying used rather than new whenever I can (for some reason no one wants to consider the upfront heavy burdens of manufacturing things like e-bikes and EVs when the used markets for both are so healthy). I try to avoid contributing to the workplace suffering of others and the normalization of antisocial, anticompetitive business strategies so I try not to encourage those practices by giving money to those who violate those (e.g. Amazon). I shop at overstock groceries (Grocery Outlet) and department stores (Ross, Marshalls) to circularize the economy that much more.

Everyone has priorities, and especially as we emerge out of the pandemic and I observe the working and spending habits of those around me I see that many people value personal, individual conveniences often at the expense of dignity and comfort for others. I want to think I value those things for myself and others and so try to live in accordance with those values. Everyone must compromise but that doesn't excuse at all where exactly we end up drawing that line.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by simbolit on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:01AM (#36845340)
Are you suggesting the "we take all your data"-ecosystem of Alphabet is preferable? Or are you so hardcore, everyone not working on *nix FOSS is judged?
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by jamil7 on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:05AM (#36845369)
I'm presuming it's the latter, which is precisely the reason they have a reputation for being some of the most unbearable people in the tech community.
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:22AM (#36845503)
case->rest()
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by MontyCarloHall on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:21AM (#36845499)
>There’s serious hate for Apple amongst techs.

According to the StackOverflow developer survey, 33% of developers use macOS [0], which is approximately double its overall market share of ~15% [1].

In my experience, every tech company office I’ve ever been to has been a sea of MacBooks.

[0] https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_sys....

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:24AM (#36845525)
Yup. I worked for years in the imaging industry, and there's plenty of Apple, there.

That still doesn't stop a very vocal minority of folks from spewing hate on us. Heck, just spend five minutes, browsing comments on this very forum, and you'll run into it.

Seriously. Just make a few posts, indicating that you develop Apple software, and see where that takes you.

Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by shortrounddev2 on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:15AM (#36846682)
Yeah I actually see more hate towards Windows in the software development ecosystem. I spend my days on HN defending Powershell
Re:Young people are flocking to astrology by resfirestar on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:49AM (#36847146)
Try working in IT or software dev at a company nobody would confuse for a "tech company", preferably outside of California. The Windows monoculture and Apple hate is massive in my experience. (Not trying to say it's a bad thing, I don't mind hating Apple products or Apple the company, what I do sometimes encounter that gets on my nerves though is spiteful behavior towards end users or even customers who have Macs.)