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Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by kahnclusions on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:27AM (#36810630)
Yeah I don't think it's fair to compare him that way. Einstein on the other hand benefited a lot from the timing of when he was born and started working in physics. His work was very much built upon that of others... Maxwell discovered the relationship between electromagnetism and light, Michelson inadvertently proved 'c' was a constant, Lorentz described the transformations between frames of reference and effects like time dilation and length contraction. It sounded like Lorentz was on the verge of special relativity but just couldn't accept the universe being that weird. I think what it took was not a super-genius, but someone smart who was willing to embrace the weirdness and take these ideas together to their logical conclusion.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by staunton on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:45AM (#36810736)
You're forgetting general relativity. Special relativity, yeah, someone else was going to do that one the same decade as Einstein.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by sgillen on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:01AM (#36810819)
Hilbert almost beat Einstein to the punch though!
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by tonightstoast on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:15AM (#36810910)
Only after Einstein told him what he had been working on.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bmitc on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:38AM (#36811066)
Yea, and Hilbert was just operating mathematically once he new the setup, as far as I understand. Einstein's special sauce with general relativity was the whole curved space-time thing. I mean, very few even really valued the theory once he released it until decades later. A century later, it's effectively unchanged, with a lot of extensions of course. It is probably the achievement in physics.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by anonyfox on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:58AM (#36811223)
I would argue that the biggest achievement in physics ever was sir Isaac newton: not only the 3 laws formulating classical mechanics, but also inventing calculus itself - which nowadays is basically all what these scientists use all day now (massively complex differential equations) + statistics
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bmitc on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:12AM (#36811325)
I think it's fair to say that Newton was a genius but also that a lot of the stuff during that time was ripe for the picking. There were several contributors to the developments of calculus. And Newton's calculus was pretty quickly "re-factored" from geometric to analytic terms.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bboygravity on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:18AM (#36812475)
That's kind of like claiming that SpaceX isn't that special because it was all just "ripe for picking" (or any new tech or theory really was all ripe for picking at the time that it was picked).

It seems to me that people forget that the "picking" part is what it's all about: actually doing the work.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by coldtea on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:30AM (#36813028)
SpaceX isn't that special. It's 70+ years of NASA work
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by llamaLord on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:16AM (#36813381)
That's why there's so many other companies effectively competing with them... Oh... Wait...
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by kevin_thibedeau on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:23AM (#36813457)
Making reusable boosters work was pretty special. No incumbent was going to attempt it because they were unwilling to reduce their per launch profit margin on an unproven risk. SpaceX changed the entire economics of launch services and obsoleted every other player with their plan that detractors were sure would never work.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by abakker on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:22AM (#36814132)
Ideas aren't special...execution is special. And SpaceX has not just execution but commercialization.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dmbche on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:11AM (#36813344)
Yeah can you point to something SpaceX is doing of a similar magnitude of importance to Calculus or Classical Mechanics?
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bmitc on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:28AM (#36814938)
I didn't say Newton's work wasn't special. The implication is that general relativity is special-er.

> because it was all just "ripe for picking" (or any new tech or theory really was all ripe for picking at the time that it was picked).

Yea, that kind of is the point. General relativity came out of nowhere and was executed on at the same time. SpaceX is irrelevant to discussing achievements in physics.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by hetspookjee on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:18AM (#36811734)
Don't forget most of us are using Leibniz' notation for calculus, though. They invented calculus around the same time.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by KineticLensman on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:20AM (#36811749)
> which nowadays is basically all what these scientists use all day now

Newton was a genius, but calculus isn't solely his. A lot of modern calculus is closer to Leibnitz's formulation rather than Newton's, e.g. notation [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus#Leibniz_notation

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by ploum on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:11AM (#36812424)
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by KineticLensman on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:18AM (#36814078)
I see your XKCD and raise you the Baroque Trilogy by Neal Stephenson, where a significant sub-plot concerns the Newton - Leibnitz rivalry :-)
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by WorldMaker on Friday July 21, 2023 @01:49PM (#36817032)
My understanding has grown to be that Newton's genius was probably the incredible intersection of Calculus and Physics. (One or the other might have occurred to others, but Newton synthesized them better and faster and at the same time.) Newton's Calculus was rougher and aesthetically uglier, but he did the most the quickest with "Applied" Calculus. Leibniz had the raw math of the Calculus better and aesthetically his notation was much better. It was less "Applied" and didn't quite capture as much of the relationship to Physics (but it captured relationships to other parts of math that Newton missed, being so focused on Physics first).

We use Newton's insights into the applications of the Calculus to other sciences and we use Leibniz's artful way of capturing the Calculus to symbols on paper (and chalkboards).

There's a power of "dualism" in mathematics that sometimes you don't know that you have the right math until you've got two (or more views of it), enough to say "these lenses really do show the same thing".

I find it interesting to spot such dualisms, and especially how many of them were contemporary mathematicians working at some remove or another (countries or an ocean apart). From a computing perspective that's always been fascinating to me about the Church-Turing Theorem (which is always a relevant tangent on HN). Most people ignore Alonso Church's contributions and just call it the Turing Theorem, but the Theorem itself is about dualism (that all formulations we found of computation themselves are dual and can be translated or emulated between each other) and doesn't exist if it weren't for Church and Turing coexisting and conversing. (Plus, it has been said that it was Church that originally proposed the math to prove the dualism between their work and it was a sequence of correspondence that Church originated.)

That is no disrespect to Alan Turing, of course, to include Church in that theorem name and respect the dualism of their contemporaneous work. I think that balance looks a lot like Newton versus Leibniz: Turing knew the practical applications of computing and was starting from a place of having built them (though classified at the time) and Church was working from pure principles and theory in mathematics (the Lambda Calculus). We greatly benefit from both having worked on the same ideas as duals of each other, and we greatly benefit that their correspondence involved an ocean in between them so that they also weren't entirely in the same mindspace. We use a lot of Turing's applied practical synthesis of computing and we rely on a lot of things from Church's notations or things derived from it (including the Y Combinator for which this site's domain name refers).

Modern computing owes a lot to the dualism of Turing and Church. Modern Calculus owes a lot to the dualism of Newton and Leibniz. I find that incredibly interesting and I appreciate that about the mathematics of both things.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by Panoramix on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:26AM (#36810999)
I haven't met anyone that has read Einstein's papers and things of him as something but a super genius.

Obviously his work is based on the result of others, you could make that claim for 100% of scientists and mathematicians.

Not only was relativity a mind blowing thing that he clearly saw through, there's the massive leap to general relativity, then there's the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, the mass energy equivalence, Bose-Einstein condensate, the cosmological constant and even his work on quantum entanglement. Any of which would make a physicist very famous. For one single person to come up with so many ideas, is almost unbelievable.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by 317070 on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:10AM (#36811305)
And even when Einstein didn't know the answer, in things like the Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky it shows he was also really good at coming up with the right question.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by contravariant on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:23AM (#36811761)
I sometimes wonder what it would look like if a time traveller became stranded in the past and needed to advance physics by several decades in order to build a device to return home.

Einstein ticks quite a few of the boxes.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dingaling on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:26AM (#36811784)
Perhaps he was an avatar of one of the universe simulator's programmers, giving us a nudge to move the scenario along.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by danudey on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:27PM (#36815813)
Like using a cheat code to buff one of your units in a video game.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by mjs on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:26AM (#36811779)
A lot of these discoveries were also published in the same year (1905):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annus_mirabilis_papers

(General relativity was 1915.)

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by JKCalhoun on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:30AM (#36813031)
I think both are true. Timing plays a role but it requires the local (in a temporal sense) genius of the day to put together the pieces.

Plenty of other physicists were contemporaries of Einstein and did not see what he saw.

I suspect also that had Einstein instead lived in this modern age where, at least to this layman physics progress appears to be floundering, he too would have been struggling to stitch all the pieces together into some semblance of a whole.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dmbche on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:08AM (#36813313)
And let's not forget that he released four monumental papers THE SAME YEAR( called Annus Mirabilis, miraculous year)! Brownian motion, Special Relativity, Photoelectric Effect and Mass-Energy Equivalence.

Astonishing!

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by ben_w on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:43AM (#36813645)
Thanks to the timing, I strongly suspect that half of those four — in aggregate, not necessarily two of the four complete items — were from his wife, who was also brilliant.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by taylodl on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:04AM (#36813894)
Special Relativity wasn't really all that special - Einstein put all the existing pieces together. Lorentz actually put it together but just didn't believe that's how the universe actually operated.

Einstein's genius was the General Theory of Relativity. That was truly original and revolutionary thought, the likes of which we only see every few hundred years.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by kwhitefoot on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:08AM (#36813933)
Relativity as a concept is at least as old as Galileo.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by wslh on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:56AM (#36811209)
What you are saying applies practically to any person, scientist, professional, artisan or whatever. You and me are writing this on HN because someone invented integrated circuits, before the transistor, before and before and after and after (e.g. Internet). It is the basics for the old adagio [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_g...

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by agumonkey on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:08AM (#36812875)
This debate has popped up in France since Henri Poincaré was also working on these topics.. what I got out of it is that Einstein was the only one who could integrate all the bits into a coherent physical model, regardless of the genius of the other scientists involved.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by coldtea on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:13AM (#36812909)
>I think what it took was not a super-genius, but someone smart who was willing to embrace the weirdness and take these ideas together to their logical conclusion.

Who says that doesn't take super-genius?

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by kwhitefoot on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:11AM (#36813980)
Not necessarily. Einstein himself said that his greatest advantage over others mathematical physicists was that he was willing to stay with a problem longer.

I'm not disagreeing that he was a genius, only that genius is a very ill-defined term.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by nabla9 on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:22AM (#36813443)
Your view does not match the history. Einstein did tree separate and mind bending discoveries each worth a noble-price (and published them in the same year).

More importantly Einstein's peers thought he was above them all.

Quoting Eugene Wigner who know both Einstein and Von Neumann.

"I have known a great many intelligent people in my life. I knew Planck, von Laue and Heisenberg. Paul Dirac was my brother in law; Leo Szilard and Edward Teller have been among my closest friends; and Albert Einstein was a good friend, too. But none of them had a mind as quick and acute as Jancsi (John) von Neumann. I have often remarked this in the presence of those men and no one ever disputed. But Einstein's understanding was deeper even than von Neumann's. His mind was both more penetrating and more original than von Neumann's. And that is a very remarkable statement. Einstein took an extraordinary pleasure in invention. Two of his greatest inventions are the Special and General Theories of Relativity; and for all of Jancsi's brilliance, he never produced anything as original."

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by FrustratedMonky on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:28AM (#36813509)
Exactly, everyone builds on the past. Criticizing Oppenheimer in this way is missing point. Maybe he wasn't Einstein, but maybe Einstein wouldn't be able to organize and run a project. Part of this was also a combination of Physics Knowledge merged with getting things done, managing, organizing.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by rvense on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:07AM (#36813931)
> someone smart who was willing to embrace the weirdness and take these ideas together to their logical conclusion.

It's been pointed out to me a few times that a lot of big advances in the natural sciences are made by people early in their careers who aren't very old. Perhaps it's easier to accept something "weird" and follow such a thought when you're not two-three decades invested in an old paradigm.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by DimitriPetrova on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:09PM (#36819810)
It also helps when you're working as patent clerk and don't have doctorate advisor
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by _zachs on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:27AM (#36814195)
You can take kahnclusions' word for it, or you can take Eugene Wigner's:

> I have known a great many intelligent people in my life. I knew Planck, von Laue and Heisenberg. Paul Dirac was my brother in law; Leo Szilard and Edward Teller have been among my closest friends; and Albert Einstein was a good friend, too. But none of them had a mind as quick and acute as Jancsi (John) von Neumann. I have often remarked this in the presence of those men and no one ever disputed. But Einstein's understanding was deeper even than von Neumann's. His mind was both more penetrating and more original than von Neumann's. And that is a very remarkable statement. Einstein took an extraordinary pleasure in invention. Two of his greatest inventions are the Special and General Theories of Relativity; and for all of Jancsi's brilliance, he never produced anything as original.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by naijaboiler on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:14PM (#36822176)
Neumann was a human calculator + encyclopedia in one. If there was ever intellectual olympics track and field, he would dominate the single sprint event.

What Einstein had was a deep curiosity, damn near super-human persistence, and some measure of an inventor's creativity. Even in mundane interactions, his curiosity stood out.