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Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ahi on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:31PM (#36789120)
Large alumni donations can and often do increase the cost of education of all the other students. They frequently lead to large capital investments that then have uncovered operational costs. I used to work for one of the wealthiest universities with 100s of millions in capital improvements annually that couldn't provide functional HVAC and a fresh coat of paint to the buildings it had.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by melvinmelih on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:42PM (#36789326)
> They frequently lead to large capital investments that then have uncovered operational costs

The problem is not the high amounts, but most donations can only be used for a specific purpose, so even though the endowments are high, the actual working capital will be a lot lower.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by bell-cot on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:42PM (#36790293)
Plausible. OTOH, a institution can Just Say No to somebody who insists that their donation be used for something which is un-needed. Or will be an ongoing maintenance money pit. Or that sounds plausible...but the complexity of the strings attached to the cash is not worth having to keep track of in perpetuity.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by darth_avocado on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:41PM (#36789305)
That’s because the money goes to everything except education. The “admin” is a curse to everything it gets involved with. I went to a public university and I remember our CS classes over subscribed because the UnI wouldn’t fund two additional TAs, meanwhile our Chancellor got a 300k fence to prevent protesters from getting close to his university funded house protesting “his mismanagement of funds and corruption”.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by darth_aardvark on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:11PM (#36789812)
Go bears!
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by 1234letshaveatw on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:38PM (#36789233)
What about smaller, recurring donations? Does that increase the cost?
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by evancox100 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:39PM (#36789262)
Probably not, because they don’t come with the string attached that “you must build a new building and name it after me to receive this donation”.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by sangnoir on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:49PM (#36789435)
"..and the building (a dorm) must not have any windows"[1]

1. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/11/22/nightmare-of-t...

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ghaff on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:59PM (#36789615)
Yeah. Even if a modest donation is earmarked to, say, the athletic department, the school has a lot of flexibility to move unrestricted money from one pocket to the other. For significant even if not huge donations though, schools really would like unrestricted gifts in general.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ticviking on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:29PM (#36790095)
Seems simple enough to get someone that vain to cough up an annuity to pay for maintenance and some admins for that building, “we’d hate for your building to wind up like poor Jefferson Hall, we can’t even afford to pressure wash it every 5 years.”
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by jstarfish on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:24PM (#36790961)
Yeah. Stadiums and landmark buildings don't work this way, so why universities diverge is beyond me.

Whoever pays for upkeep should get the naming rights.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by LegitShady on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:40PM (#36789291)
This is a little bit ridiculous. There is no connection between alumni donations and capital investments except decisions that university leadership chooses to make. The issue isn't the donations, its the university leadership thats choosing to make large capital expenditures. The donations could go to other things and do go to other things. Any blame you're putting on the donations actually belongs to the people running the university. Blaming unwise spending on donations without mentioning who is making those decisions as the root of the issue is ridiculous.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by simiones on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:42PM (#36789324)
How often does anyone donate millions of dollars with no strings attached, especially to a university?
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by LegitShady on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:08PM (#36789757)
If someone offers you $5m and in return you have to spend $25m, you can choose not to go -$20m by just not accepting the $5m under the terms proposed. Thats fiscal leadership.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by Symbiote on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:00PM (#36790580)
Another option in this case is to find other donors to make up the rest. Maybe one can have the largest lecture theatre named after them, or the street renamed, or choose the art, etc.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by RhodesianHunter on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:44PM (#36789358)
I think you're referring to small incremental donations while their person you're replying to is referring to the giant "you must name a building after me" ones.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by LegitShady on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:09PM (#36789778)
Naming a building after someone doesn't have a financial aspect.

If a gift requires further spending later and the overall benefit is net negative, its up to the university to negotiate terms or turn it down.

It's all university leadership failing to steward their university.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by lazyasciiart on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:22PM (#36789968)
It means a new building. And are you saying that if admitting a legacy kid or taking a restricted donation is net negative they shouldn’t do it? They just need to know in advance if the future donations from the family will be worth it? How simple!
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by LegitShady on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:40PM (#36790262)
Again if a gift will create a big long term financial obligation that will end up making it a net negative, it is obviously the role of leadership to choose whether to implement it or not.

Taking into account fictional future donations and communicating with donator and explaining the issue is called negotiation. Being convinced to make bad financial decisions in fear of losing a donator is again, a failure of leadership.

If someone offers you $10 if you spend $100 later you're better off not taking it, even if you could have bought something with that $10. That basic financial stewardship is the role of university leadership to deal with. They failed.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by w0m on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:57PM (#36789567)
> There is no connection between alumni donations and capital investments except decisions that university leadership chooses to make.

Not (always) true. Direct example with Carnegie Mellon - David Tepper was upset the business school (his alma mater) was appearing to fall behind in recruiting, so he donated ~100m but tied it to the business school getting a new building/quad. Total cost to the university was well north of 200mil; and their hands were functionally tied in how it was spent.

Yes, I know this is an outlier and yes, university leadership could have said no - but you're risking pissing off a doner who's given 100m+ over the years and will likely continue giving (and you know Tepper will continue guiding further capital expenditures as he sees the need).

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by LegitShady on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:07PM (#36789740)
Those are all decisions the university leadership made. David Tepper (?) doesn't run the school - the university leadership decided to make those decisions to get the money. They could have said "this isn't sustainable", and their hands weren't tied.

"Your $100m gift will cost us $200m, we can't accept it as currently stipulated".

All university leadership decisions that they failed on.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by tough on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:21PM (#36789939)
yeah way easier to blame the donor for his pesky asks
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by pc86 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:47PM (#36790370)
What risk in there in pissing off the donor if the donor's gifts all cost you at least that much? If someone offers me $100 million but conditions it on me spending $101 million, it doesn't really matter how upset they get with me because I was never going to come out ahead in that deal anyway.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by Given_47 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @03:18PM (#36791758)
Now also called the Tepper School of Business!
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by francisofascii on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:27PM (#36790053)
> university leadership that's choosing to make large capital expenditures

SUNY Binghamton recently received a private donation of $60 million, with a rule from the person donating it had to be spent on a new baseball stadium. Do you think the university leadership should have declined the offer?

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by pc86 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:48PM (#36790381)
If it costs more than $60 million to build the stadium, sure.

What good is a $60 million donation if it costs you $100 million on something you weren't going to buy in the first place?

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by Brusco_RF on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:59PM (#36790549)
Because now you have a $100M stadium that you only paid $40M for. That stadium generates revenue. You just need to make sure the numbers work
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by davewashere on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:31PM (#36791085)
This is lower tier D1 baseball in the Northeast, so revenue is going to be minimal.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by pc86 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @04:48PM (#36793103)
> You just need to make sure the numbers work

The entire point of this thread is that universities aren't doing that, because they're accepting $100 million donations with quarter-billion dollar lifetime price tags tied with them.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ARandumGuy on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:43PM (#36789346)
Most universities have really messy financials. A lot of money gets spent on projects and programs that don't directly benefit the education students receive, or the research output of the university. Things like sports investments, ballooning administration staff, or flashy construction projects. At the same time, TAs, grad students, adjunct professors, and other staff are frequently underpaid and overworked.

There's a lot of room to debate on what colleges should spend their money on, and what they should be providing. But American universities are not strapped for cash, and should be spending more of it on things that directly benefit students and researchers.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ethbr0 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:50PM (#36789456)
The US federal government should do the same thing to public universities (US definition) that they did to insurance companies via the ACA -- cap administrative overhead.

For every dollar in tuition, >Y% must be spent on qualifying direct educational expenses. E.g. teaching faculty salary, etc.

If a college fails to meet that threshold, and spends too much on non-qualifying costs, they are required to rebate the difference to students.

If a college refuses to do this, they're no longer eligible for federal educational money (Pell grants or loans, etc).

Then let colleges optimize themselves to get under the limit.

It caused a lot of scrambling and long-overdue efficiency improvements in another legacy, slow-to-change industry (health insurance).

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by dublinben on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:27PM (#36790051)
The colleges will just respond in the same way that the insurance companies did, by jacking up prices. Raising the amount they're charging for premiums / tuition allows them to still maintain or grow their total overhead amount, even at a lower rate.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by cyberlurker on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:45PM (#36790333)
One would hope consumer choice would come into play and students would start shopping around for the best deal.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by EatingWithForks on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:51PM (#36790439)
This didn't work in the same way it doesn't work with insurance: students are limited by more than just price alone. Location matters a lot (a student may be staying with their parents). And also if all univiersities raise their prices in this way, there's nothing the students can do.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:51PM (#36790432)
Doubtful.

The only reason the cost of college is high is because 18 year olds that know nothing about finance don't have to pay for it now because they can get loans.

You take away the loans, and you take away the ability of the college to charge whatever it wants and kids keep paying.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by janalsncm on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @04:17PM (#36792575)
Are 18 year olds today significantly less smart than 18 year olds 50 years ago? No. So why is tuition so much more expensive? In 1970 tuition at University of California schools was about $1000, inflation adjusted. You could easily make that at a summer job.

So what has changed? States have stopped funding for schools. A lot of tuition used to be covered by tax money, which spreads out the cost to everyone and over many years. Now, it is a very abrupt cost to a small group of people.

The prior funding model also had the benefit of a progressive tax system. Wealthier people paid into it more than poor people. Now, students have to rely on unpredictable financial assistance like grants and scholarships, and take on predatory loans to cover the difference.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @04:46PM (#36793061)
> So what has changed? States have stopped funding for schools.

Yes - but more importantly, schools got more expensive, because people had more access to debt.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by underlipton on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @06:53PM (#36794641)
That's not an issue particular to university funding, though. Access to - and use of - debt has gone up across the board, for any and all big-ticket items, both for private and public purchases. There's a problem far larger than expansion of credit access, and it has to do with attitudes at the uppermost reaches of the planning of our economy as to how to distribute wealth - not just by geography or interest, but even by temporally. Decisions made 40-50 years ago to put the cost burden on future generations are literally paying interest today.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ethbr0 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:54PM (#36790478)
I'd question whether insurance companies jacking up prices for purposes of growing headcount was a major trend.

In the ACA aftermath, I believe you saw more insurance companies exit markets because they couldn't be competitive and profitable on prices with standardized plans.

Which is its own problem and led to a lot of limited-insurer markets, but a different one.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by Brusco_RF on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:53PM (#36790470)
I stopped reading after the first sentence.

Our current health insurance laws should NOT be a model for anything, ever!

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ethbr0 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:57PM (#36790517)
What would you have done differently, in an attempt to evolve a complex, layered, and ossified industry that absolutely cannot stop providing service for even a day?
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by Brusco_RF on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:05PM (#36790644)
I'd start by removing the subsidies and special rules around student loans. That makes colleges compete on price again which puts downward pressure on tuition.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by vmladenov on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @04:44PM (#36793038)
Repealed the McCarran-Ferguson Act at the time instead of waiting until 2021 to do it?
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by psychlops on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @03:19PM (#36791768)
You made it past "The US federal government should"?
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by at_a_remove on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:47PM (#36789415)
I only know a little dirt about the one I worked in and it was pretty bad. The redirection of funds, the word games, and so on ... I would have a better chance of making improvements I desired by making little paper airplanes out of hundred dollar bills and trying to hit areas I though needed help.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by tough on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:16PM (#36789882)
> I would have a better chance of making improvements I desired by making little paper airplanes out of hundred dollar bills and trying to hit areas I though needed help.

It was certainly an amusing visualisation lmao

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by philwelch on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:44PM (#36790320)
> sports investments, ballooning administration staff, or flashy construction projects

Construction projects are typically the result of specific earmarked donations and sports investments often create lots of income. NCAA Division I programs should be thought of as a side business that generates revenue for the university.

Administrative staff is the major problem here. It’s also where most organizations tend to dump their excess revenue, and since the US has been aggressively subsidizing demand for universities for decades, they’ve had a ton of excess revenue to dump into administrative staff.

> TAs, grad students, adjunct professors

Most academic fields produce significantly more Ph.D.’s than there are tenure track positions or other full time professional careers. As a result, the grad student or Ph.D. exists in a competitive-verging-on-exploitative labor market. The typical grad student or adjunct is in the same position as the aspiring actor who has a day job in LA waiting tables. People always claim that this is because there aren’t enough tenure track positions, but I think that’s backwards. Why would you open up a tenure track position when you have a plethora of Ph.D’s who are apparently willing to work as adjuncts? If the universities didn’t produce as many Ph.D’s in the first place, the labor market would be more competitive and they would need to offer tenure track positions.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by kelipso on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:03PM (#36790619)
Universities shouldn't have side businesses, don't they have some non-profit status that's specific to education? They should be heavily restricted to education and research alone.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by philwelch on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:20PM (#36790898)
I’m not a huge fan of the NCAA system myself. A lot of universities don’t have major sports programs, and that’s a respectable choice on their part. But NCAA sports are tremendously profitable for the universities that invest in them. No Division I school would actually save money, in the long run, by defunding their football and basketball teams.

And when it comes to side businesses, sports pale in comparison to endowments.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by Given_47 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:30PM (#36791065)
Yea same I’m a big hoop nerd but the mainstream collegiate sports especially basketball make my eyes bleed. Literally infuriating to watch idk how people do.

But something like Duke Basketball has been tremendously beneficial to Duke–in terms of brand awareness. Same with UT Austin and their football brand ($7mm on new locker room is insanity tho).

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by selimthegrim on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:38PM (#36791187)
>No Division I school would actually save money, in the long run, by defunding their football and basketball teams.

Tulane might be a counterexample to this especially since the 80s (although not lately)

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by kelipso on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @02:50PM (#36791371)
Who cares about making money or not, plenty of ways to make money, but that's not the purpose of a non-profit organization dedicated to education.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by chaostheory on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @03:14PM (#36791703)
Less revenue for the school means higher tuition costs for everyone and less scholarships.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by kelipso on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @06:18PM (#36794265)
No, more revenue means that revenue goes to paying for non educational stuff, admin bloat, etc.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by residentraspber on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:56PM (#36790500)
The waste is unreal. When I was in Uni, I used to sit outside and work in a little side-of-a-building park area where, every spring, I'd watch the grounds crew pull up perfectly good looking flowers and plant slightly better looking ones in the days before a "parents weekend" or a big admissions event.

They would just toss the "old" flowers in the dumpster

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by 0cf8612b2e1e on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @07:07PM (#36794769)
Corporations do the exact same thing before shareholder’s meetings.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by joshuamorton on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @05:54PM (#36794013)
> or flashy construction projects

My experience discussing this with some Deans of (large, top 10ish) institutions is that space and (qualified, tenure track) faculty are basically the hardest things to find, and space is probably harder. Lots of things require space (including, for example: student services), but space is limited, and classrooms and research and administrative space often take priority. And creating space is difficult, it takes years to build a building.

Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by enkid on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:46PM (#36789402)
People don't want to donate to fixing something old, they want to donate to making something new, even when fixing something old is way more effective.
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by ghaff on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @12:53PM (#36789496)
Nothing like how private companies like Google operate. /s
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by balderdash on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:41PM (#36790268)
Isn’t that more of an indictment of the administration than of alumni donors?
Re:Carnegie Mellon, University of Pittsburgh end use of lega... by r0m4n0 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @07:10PM (#36794798)
This might be partially true but I think the bigger implication is that the donations do lead to overall more investment overall which leads to better universities. This is true with literally donations to anything…

I battle our elected officials with similar arguments. We want some safety improvements to our neighborhood roads. We ask them to work on a fix. They say there isn’t money for them. We show them there are federal grants to pay for them. They say they need staff to “manage” the grant money. End of the day, now nothing happens and we still have unsafe roads.

You can’t argue no money is better than some money. It takes a little more to see change but you go much further