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Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by mc32 on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:07PM (#36717784)
Sometimes you have to let countries duke it out themselves and settle their scores by themselves. I also think post Cold War, we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Let those countries defend themselves. Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by outworlder on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:10PM (#36717802)
> Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?

Because that's what superpowers do if they want to keep their position as superpowers.

You can, for example, stop policing shipping lanes. But then can't complain once shipments start disappearing as other countries don't take the slack. There is less justification to keep warships near 'interesting' countries in that scenario too. You get to keep the military machine well oiled. And the list goes on.

The US is not doing this out of benevolence.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by rufus_foreman on Thursday July 13, 2023 @09:31PM (#36718370)
No.

The United States was the world's superpower on December 6, 1941.

It did not get to that position by keeping the military machine well oiled.

On December 6, 1941, the US vs. rest of world might have been a fair fight. Maybe.

That didn't happen by being the world police.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by jcranmer on Thursday July 13, 2023 @10:36PM (#36718791)
> On December 6, 1941, the US vs. rest of world might have been a fair fight. Maybe.

No, it wouldn't have. The US would likely have lost the fight, especially if you consider that in such a counterfactual world there probably wouldn't have been a WW2 going on for the past few years.

While it is difficult to be more precise about when the US became the top world power than "during WW2", it is pretty clear to most knowledgeable observers that the answer is definitely not before WW2 breaks out (it is at best at parity with Britain). And honestly, I'd be skeptical of putting it before the Guadalcanal Campaign, where the US throws battleships into a cruiser battle because it has run out of cruisers. The point I'd go for is when the Essex carriers start coming online, which is 1943.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by rufus_foreman on Friday July 14, 2023 @01:33AM (#36719858)
You are confusing military power with industrial power.

The US had industrial power before 1941, before 1911, starting in the 1890s.

The US could turn that into military power any time it wanted to, and in the time period between the world wars, it didn't want to.

After 1941, it wanted to. Because of a lot of lies, but that's another discussion entirely.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by speakfreely on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:29PM (#36717945)
This entire narrative reads like someone who has not consumed any geopolitical news whatsoever since the mid-2010s.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by macintux on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:10PM (#36717801)
Because we benefit disproportionately from world peace, uninterrupted shipping, and the world economy using the U.S. dollar as its reserve currency.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by mc32 on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:21PM (#36717882)
The dollar became the world currency by accident after the OPEC started pricing petroleum in dollars. We're starting to see a slow departure from that.

If we did not spend those extra tens of billions per year in projecting power, we could better serve our students, workers, retirees, infrastructure, etc. Instead, they go to ensuring Japan, Korea, Philippines, etc. don't have to spend so much on defense.

As China ascends to No. 1, will they take over the spending? (I'd be happy of they were the ones keeping shipping lanes for their own exports open and not us)

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by thaumasiotes on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:29PM (#36717943)
> I'd be happy [if China] were the ones keeping shipping lanes for their own exports open and not us

History's not on your side for that one. You're talking about the country that, plagued by pirates disturbing its coastal shipping, went to massive expense to construct an enormous system of inland canals running parallel to the coast that the pirates couldn't reach.

If Chinese merchants wanted the sea kept clear, say because they wanted to trade with nearby islands, they had do that in their own private capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koxinga

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by bagels on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:45PM (#36718065)
Do you think that it is possible that in the last 400 years that the strategy might change in how to deal with piracy?
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by lucasban on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:49PM (#36718097)
I hardly think the situation a few hundred years ago is relevant to their ability to secure their modern shipping lines
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by thaumasiotes on Saturday July 15, 2023 @02:05AM (#36734046)
They had the ability then. It just wasn't something they were interested in doing.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by dirtyid on Friday July 14, 2023 @01:52AM (#36719954)
>history's not on your side for that one

Except that's history. Reality today is not on your side. PRC has more ship building capacity than rest of world combined. Annual production of dead weight tons per year is about 6x-8x more than output US emergency ship building program during WW2. Not to mention most new PRC surface combatants do anti piracy tours out to Africa. If PRC/PLAN wanted to take over piracy protection for her SLOCs, they can basically do so already, plenty of small hulls being retired to coast guard that even they have enough capacity to do it.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by throw47474777j on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:49PM (#36718094)
> If we did not spend those extra tens of billions per year in projecting power, we could better serve our students, workers, retirees, infrastructure, etc.

This is laughable. If we didn’t spend billions projecting power, we’d be much poorer because world trade would become much more costly for us, as China reshapes it to its own advantage.

China isn’t looking in great shape to do any ‘ascending’ anyway.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by jcranmer on Thursday July 13, 2023 @10:18PM (#36718678)
> The dollar became the world currency by accident after the OPEC started pricing petroleum in dollars.

OPEC was formed on September 14, 1960. The definition of "world currency" is somewhat nebulous, but for the purposes of determining when the "dollar became the world currency", perhaps the best date to use is the Bretton Woods conference, which set up the main international financial system, establishing that everyone would peg their currencies to the US dollar, as well as the existence of the IMF and the World Bank. This was done--on purpose, not "by accident"--in June, 1944, 16 years before OPEC ever existed. The Bretton Woods system itself collapses in the 1970s.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by mcculley on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:17PM (#36717858)
An implicit deal we have made with many other states is that in exchange for managing the peace, they will not develop or further develop nuclear capability.

To me, that is worth a lot.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by zirgs on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:30PM (#36717948)
Yup - if we didn't accept Finland and Sweden into NATO then their only option to prevent a Russian invasion would be to develop nukes and aim them at St. Petersburg.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by actionfromafar on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:36PM (#36718003)
I’m not sure what the joke is.

Sweden had an atomic bomb program which was dropped in the 1970s after assurances from the US to extend its “nuclear umbrella” to protect Sweden.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by zirgs on Friday July 14, 2023 @07:26AM (#36722340)
So if the USSR were to attack Sweden then what would the USA do exactly?
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by mcculley on Friday July 14, 2023 @08:27AM (#36722911)
Do you mean Russia or USSR? It is unclear if you are asking about a hypothetical event in the past or a hypothetical event in the future after ratification of Sweden’s NATO membership.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by actionfromafar on Friday July 14, 2023 @09:37AM (#36723832)
I don’t know. Most of it is still classified, but whatever it was, it was enough to assure Swedish governments of the time. (70s - early 90s)
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by zirgs on Saturday July 15, 2023 @11:04AM (#36737444)
Interesting that Sweden sees modern Russia as a bigger threat than the USSR. Whatever there was before is not enough now and they want a full NATO membership instead.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by actionfromafar on Saturday July 15, 2023 @08:13PM (#36742135)
Whatever there was before, was dismantled late eighties or early nineties, it’s hard to tell for sure.

One big reason Sweden jumped into NATO now is that the Swedish military is, not exactly a shadow of its former self, but very small.

If Sweden would have had an equivalent of the military power it had in say, 1991, I doubt a NATO application would have been made, or at least not as hastily.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by InTheArena on Thursday July 13, 2023 @08:48PM (#36718088)
American actions post world war II and post cold war are founded from the experience post-world War I, when USA left Europe to fend for itself, defend itself, and rebuild itself it resulted in a much worse outcome for the world. We tried again after World War II, but after it became clear that Europe would be ripped apart by their internal issues after World War II, and stalin would exploit that to continue to drive the iron curtain west, the USA re-engaged in Europe.

The USA and Europe have a role to play in keeping the peace. It's not a accident that China is regularly violating Japanese territorial waters (as they did last week, he 8 mile line here, not exclusive economic zones) and threatening their neighbors over possession of islands that can strangle world trade.

When China (and Russia for that manner) show that they can be apart of a international community based on common principles of human rights, there won't be a need... but until then.

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by dirtyid on Friday July 14, 2023 @01:41AM (#36719893)
USA keeping "peace" using Japan as example is detached from reality. The entire reason PRC (and TW and both Korea's and RU via USSR) has DISPUTED maritime borders and territorial claims with Japan (read: not Japanese territory / water) is because USA deliberately kept post war East Asian order unresolved post WW2. There's a reason Japan, the loser of the war, has maritime / territorial disputes with EVERY one of her neighbours (no other country has 100% territorial dispute) her post war territory should have been dictated to her via treaty, but due to US posturing, was left messily unresolved specifically because it gave US military more freedom to operate in region. It's absurd to think anyone but US and by connection JP for being the bad actors for fucking up post war resolution for other ALLIES (read: USSR -> RU and ROC -> PRC). East Asian territorial friction is precisly because USA couldn't keep peace by engineering an situtation where peace is impossible because they didn't want a durable peaceful international order and gave literal war criminals preferential geopolitical treatment because it benefited US military interests, and continues to.
Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by actionfromafar on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:53AM (#36721742)
So much to unpack.

You mean US was unfair to its USSR ally? Cry me a river. Uneasy bedfellows if there ever were, united briefly by the threat of Hitler.

Pax Americana is built not only by treaty but by force. Is it surprising the US wanted to keep its Cold War foe in check around Japanese waters?

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by ClumsyPilot on Thursday July 13, 2023 @09:00PM (#36718184)
> we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense.

Is US pritectibg Europe, or US interests in Europe?

Over the past 40 years the US spending on arms has grown, but fewer and fewer pieces are being produced. Pentagon fails audits.

Now it got to the point where USA cannot supply Ukraine with enough artillery rounds, and they are like the aimplest item to produce. Economy of Russia is like 10x smaller, this should not even be a contest in terms of production.

Imagine if there is a real conflict, and things like cruise missiles need to be replaced, what happens then - you place an order and wait 2 years for it to be delivered? China has 10 the manufacturing capabilty of Russia.

I doubtwe need to spend so much, but why are we not getting our money's worth?

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by pyrale on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:43AM (#36721111)
> Now it got to the point where USA cannot supply Ukraine with enough artillery rounds, and they are like the aimplest item to produce. Economy of Russia is like 10x smaller, this should not even be a contest in terms of production.

Never in modern history has a country been able to sustain a full-blown war without adapting its production capacity. It's not surprising that an economy dimensioned for peacetime doesn't successfully sustain a war.

> Imagine if there is a real conflict, and things like cruise missiles need to be replaced, what happens then - you place an order and wait 2 years for it to be delivered?

Basically, yes. Always was. As explained in the Vietnam war example [1]: "D to P stocks are those war reserves of ammunition which are stocked in peace time to provide the necessary reservoir of ammunition to sustain combat operations until such time that the planned production base can be activated"

[1]: http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/ebook/p/2005/CMH_2/www.army.mil/cm...

Re:Guam: The America That Americans Forget by soligern on Thursday July 13, 2023 @09:27PM (#36718334)
Because that’s what being a superpower means. A lot of the rights and privileges you enjoy is precisely because the US is a superpower. If you don’t like it, you’re more than welcome to move to some quiet backwater, there are plenty of those around the world.