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Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by NoZebra120vClip on Friday July 07, 2023 @09:58PM (#36640615)
Since this is essentially a victimless crime, and also as innocuous as you say, I believe that this is the tip of the iceberg of pranks/aggression against SDCs. I've seen that stickers have also been plastered over sensors. I believe that attackers will often take advantage of the unattended nature of SDCs in order to confuse and disable them, and the manufacturers will have little recourse but to basically wage an arms race, cat-and-mouse, to continually mitigate each situation as it manifests.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by alsobrsp on Friday July 07, 2023 @10:36PM (#36640836)
I wouldn't call this a victimless crime. This is putting the vehicle out of service causing a loss of revenue. I consider victimless crimes to be things that consenting adults choose to do that would not harm anyone else. There is clear harm to the company.

Although, I don't disagree with the method of protest.

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by NoZebra120vClip on Friday July 07, 2023 @10:41PM (#36640857)
I don't see how a putative loss of revenue causes a victimization here. A victim is an identifiable human being, with the right to life and dignity, who suffers real harm. A multibillion-dollar robotaxi AI company claims to lose a hypothetical $15 fare because their dumbass vehicle is too stupid to move? Not a victim.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by NerdiDotOrg on Friday July 07, 2023 @11:37PM (#36641142)
It's not just 1 fare though and there are real employees and executives and investors in those companies
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by sonicshadow on Friday July 07, 2023 @11:51PM (#36641205)
We did decide that corporations are people after all
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:43AM (#36641661)
Anyone with a 401k or pension is heavily invested in these businesses, so they are at least victims to these crimes. Having destitute retirees around because the economy didn’t grow enough to support their retirements is a very bad thing.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by Two4 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:20PM (#36646475)
Anyone who speculates with 401k money on relatively risky tech stocks and startups should either be prevented from gambling with other people's money or should accept the risk to their own money.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:30PM (#36646588)
Most 401K money is invested in index funds, which include GM, Alphabet, Meta, etc...

These aren't victimless crimes, just that the people suffering from them are indirect (economic crimes always have victims).

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by sonicshadow on Friday July 07, 2023 @11:52PM (#36641213)
So should we just start arresting annoying who results in a loss of revenue for a company? I didn’t eat at Carl’s Jr today, should I go to jail?
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by veec_cas_tant on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:29AM (#36641352)
This is more akin to disabling their grills so they couldn't sell food
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by NoZebra120vClip on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:22AM (#36641566)
Carl's Jr. has several workers and a manager right there to restart the grill and get it working again.

These coners are exploiting a simple hack that would ordinarily be nothing but a minor nuisance to a human driver, but it turns into a showstopper for an SDC, because there is no responsible human for dozens of miles around. It disables the car for an inordinate period of time without a realistic mitigation. It's genius!

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by veec_cas_tant on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:32AM (#36641621)
Okay, disabling self-serve gas pumps during off hours at a 24/7 station. Removing a stop sign in the middle of the night. Turning on the faucet in an unoccupied apartment.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by NoZebra120vClip on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:56AM (#36641724)
The ethical difference is that none of your examples stem from an interference in public safety.

SDCs are rolling into active shooter zones, they're blocking police, fire, and hydrants, they're actively stalking pedestrians.

This is not some random prankery or vandalism, this coning is a non-violent statement in defense of human dignity and rule of law.

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:20AM (#36641855)
> none of your examples stem from an interference in public safety

Blocking the sensors of a self-driving car is a hell of a gamble to take on the public’s safety. They shouldn’t be arrested, but they should be cited same as any petty vandal. They won’t, at least for the time being, because this is San Francisco.

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by MichaelZuo on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:25PM (#36645910)
No, it's clearly against California law, you can search the legislative record to see that Waymo and Cruise operations have been authorized.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by sonicshadow on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @01:50PM (#36684622)
Would love to know what law this is in violation of. Also laws can be changed if they're dumb.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by MichaelZuo on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @01:44PM (#36698617)
Did you miss the latter part of the comment? Waymo and Cruise operations in California have been explicitly authorized, i.e. written down on paper/databases, passed through the legislature that has binding authority on all of California, etc...
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:44AM (#36641666)
If you don’t eat at Carl’s Jr, you didn’t deprive them if willing revenue. If you decided to bar their doors so others couldn’t eat there, ya, you should go to jail.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by manuelmoreale on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:39AM (#36641940)
That is a very low bar for jail time if you ask me but I can understand your point. Don’t agree with it but I can understand it.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday July 08, 2023 @03:10AM (#36642093)
Your comment instituted a tongue & cheek low bar for low jail threshold, I just went with it. These days you need to practically murder someone to finally get sent to jail (at least where I live). But if someone physically barred me from entering a fast food restaurant, I’m not sure why that wouldn’t at least be assault (assuming I tried to force myself in, of course then the question is who is assaulting who, that can get messy legally). But, no, you wouldn’t even go to jail for assault, or would get bailed out quickly and get let off by the judge.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by manuelmoreale on Saturday July 08, 2023 @04:45AM (#36642589)
Well if someone barred you from entering a fast food that would be assault, absolutely.

But what if someone was pretending to be a public worker doing sidewalk maintenance and that forced you to simply walk on the other side of the road and not being able to access the fast food?

That to me is more like an annoyance and a form of protest.

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:29PM (#36646574)
Impersonation of a public official will actually get you thrown in jail, for some odd reason, much faster than assault will.
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by zaphirplane on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:52AM (#36642004)
Funny and i hope you are being funny, it’s the internet you never know.

In case you are serious, there is a difference between acting to harm (human, animal, building, company). Not acting to prevent harm, not acting to provide gain.

Stealing a burger, Reporting a burger being stolen, rolling your sleeves jumping behind the grill to help out

I’m sure a philosophy major can add to the list with a clearer argument

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by youngtaff on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:06AM (#36641771)
It’s not a crime is it?
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by NoZebra120vClip on Saturday July 08, 2023 @07:20AM (#36643362)
Well, I'm not sure.

If we put it into context of a city where the police care about traffic infractions, and you have some guy wearing a ski mask that runs up and throws a large opaque object onto the hood of a moving vehicle, I am confident that any cop worth his salt could think up a plausible reason to write a ticket for that ski-mask guy.

I think it would be a minor infraction of some kind, of course: jaywalking, or mischief, or interfering with moving traffic.

I think that if a cop was determined to ticket the guy, that it wouldn't matter whether the vehicle is driverless or not, it'd still be (in a cop's mind) a ticketable offense.

But of course this is transpiring in San Francisco, where the cops don't care if you're mugged and beaten, or your drugstore is smash-and-grabbed, unless you happen to be Nancy Pelosi's husband.

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday July 08, 2023 @02:45AM (#36641972)
> this is essentially a victimless crime

It’s blinding sensors on a car. Best case, nothing is damaged in a way that hurts someone later.

It’s also property damage. Excusing it in this form is the same blindness that has led to retail becoming unviable in downtown San Francisco. Damage and victimhood doesn’t disappear just because it’s complicated.

Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by sizzle on Saturday July 08, 2023 @04:01AM (#36642351)
What property was damaged?
Re:San Francisco Activists Are ‘Coning’ Cruise, Waymo Robota... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday July 08, 2023 @05:25AM (#36642782)
How thrilled would you be if I threw a traffic cone on or snowball at your car or house every day? Is that response unjustified because my actions are unlikely to cause damage every time?

The line between peaceful protest and rioting is property damage. This looks intended to be peaceful, but the intent is ambiguous. All it takes is a toss too hard or a hooligan to cross that line, and the line is crossed and civic argument toasted.

Put another way, this is aimless catharsis. Not civic engagement. It’s about as mature as the folks who were egging Google busses a decade ago, and now decry the budget cuts those jobs leaving San Francisco bring.