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Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by retskrad on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @08:58AM (#36586053)
Based on the articles I've read about this product, it might be the most advanced consumer tech we've ever seen. It would be a surprise if the production was a smooth sailing.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by kzrdude on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @08:59AM (#36586069)
It's created seemingly for a high growth part of the cycle and not a recession. It might fail based on that timing?
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by redtehartykle on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:06AM (#36586158)
Apple was just valued at over 3T. NVIDIA spiked. Infrastructure Bill spending is coming through as I understand it.

We're in a post-vid slump growth phase.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by smoldesu on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:45AM (#36586564)
Growth, or bubble? I don't forsee a world where Apple paves their way to 5 trillion dollar valuation. Both of their highest-margin products (iPhone and App Store) are under threat and require immediate re-arranging. They're an easy bet because "big company strong", but have so many mounting issues to deal with on the global stage. It's extremely unlikely this period of growth lasts into the future.

Nvidia is, as you said, a spike. One driven by AI but will probably be irrelevant in a few years. They're still great at engineering and CUDA will almost certainly continue to dominate, but the AI boom won't last forever. Once ASICs hit the scene it will be game over for GPGPU vendors, like it was with crypto in 2021. They'll still have gaming and industry markets to cater to, but their spiking days are numbered.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by redtehartykle on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:04AM (#36586853)
I thought a valuation of a company on a stock market was a reflection of its potential future profits.

So with these recent influx of capital to me that's the market saying that it believes Nvidia and Apple are going to bring in profits in the future so here's money now to grow in order to capture those profits that come in later.

I'm probably misunderstanding aspects here though.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by joebob42 on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:36AM (#36587300)
That's the spherical cow view of how markets work, and it's a meaningful part of what actually happens, but there's also a good amount of hype / new cycle/ non "discounted value of future cash flow" going on in practice.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by itsoktocry on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:46AM (#36587447)
>I'm probably misunderstanding aspects here though.

Yes, it's not as simple as "the company will make profits, therefore it's worth a lot".

Apple's expected forward p/e is ~28 over the next five years, which means if you believe that and buy now, you can expect an average return of 3.5%. How much you expect future earnings to grow determines if buying now is a good deal or not.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by finikytou on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @11:16AM (#36587798)
no one should underestimate apple. have you seen the inflate phone prices outside of USA? guess how much iphone 15 will cost... they ll make more money than ever and in 3 generations the vision pro will as well
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by runako on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:50AM (#36587506)
Good thing for them we're[1] not in a recession, then[2]?

More seriously, if anybody launches a platform that can't weather a recession, it wasn't going to make it long-term anyway. Windows 3 launched around the 1990 recession, IBM PC launched into the 1982 recession, iPhone launched during the 2007/2008 recession. Platforms take time to take shape. A recession occurring early in a platform's life might even be beneficial, as it will make management more forgiving of "missed" sales targets in the early years.

1 - The USA

2 - Seriously, we're not in a recession and haven't been for 3 years. The economy grew at this rate most of the last decade and there were no complaints about us being in a recession. Money costs more now is the major difference.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by vanattab on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:04AM (#36586124)
How is it so much better then other passthrough vr headsets?
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by jwells89 on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:40AM (#36586503)
Its fidelity is considerably higher with a 4k+ MicroOLED panel for each eye, which eliminates screen door effect, aliasing, etc making use cases that involve reading a lot of text in it more feasible. Its passthrough is also extremely low latency at 12ms, and its built with a full M2 SoC which is a good deal beefier than anything integrated into other standalone headsets.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by 3cats-in-a-coat on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:54AM (#36586698)
I just want to point out that despite this is one of the highest resolution VR screens on the planet right now, the pixel density would have to double once again in order to achieve Retina resolution. This is why Apple doesn't say "Retina" when talking about Vision Pro.

For people who think they'll be designing and coding on Vision Pro virtual screens all day might be disappointed.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by jwells89 on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:59AM (#36586774)
Certainly text won’t be as comfortable to read as on a high DPI display, but it’ll at least be usable, which is a notable step up from where things stand now. I own a Quest 2 and though it’s fine for gaming I can’t imagine using it for work in any capacity at all.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by 3cats-in-a-coat on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:03AM (#36586834)
Yes, the resolution should be roughly comparable to working on a typical 20-something inch HD PC screen from normal desk distance.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by pr0zac on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @01:14PM (#36589607)
Never going to be able to justify the current price but I’m still really interested in playing with it to see if I think they hit my personal bar.

I’m perfectly comfortable spending 8+ hours in a day writing code on a non-4K screen (widescreen with the pixel density of a 27in 1440p) and based on what I’ve used in the past could probably handle anything as good as a 27in 1080p monitor with the right fonts.

That said, I do find the screen door effect on my Valve Index rather distracting and can’t use it for longer than an hour or two without risking a headache, especially if I am reading any text (tried watching a movie with subtitles and oh boy).

So I don’t think retina resolution is necessary for work (at least for me personally) but it does seem like having the screens so close and completely covering vision does increase sensitivity to picture quality so I may be wrong about that.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by aeyes on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:00AM (#36586799)
But in about 3 more generations all of these features will be the standard in 500$ headsets. Just being better by making a device more expensive doesn't lead to more sales.

What's the killer app for this device which other devices on the market don't support today?

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by jwells89 on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:07AM (#36586886)
Though I’d love to see the price of these specs to come down that quickly I’m not optimistic they will. Those MicroOLED panels in particular are extremely difficult to manufacture with terrible yield.

I don’t know that a killer app for it exists, but with its built-in developer base it’s inheriting from iOS thanks to using the same APIs (a dev base that’s notoriously fast to pick up new features, at that), I believe the chances of a third party dev finding a killer app are significantly higher than with prior AR platforms.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by rbanffy on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:09AM (#36586915)
Maybe, but, by then, Apple will have had the marked for themselves for some time.

Also worth noting this is not a “headset” but a computer (“headtop”?) in a different format. Think of it not as buying a headset for your gaming rig but as a laptop replacement.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by ungamedplayer on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:05AM (#36586862)
The killer app is the brand. People trust and furiously consume the brand because of mental conditioning.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by 83457 on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:38AM (#36586475)
$3500 and Apple
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by dagmx on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @11:33AM (#36588043)
Depends what kind of passthrough you’re talking about.

If you’re talking about additive displays like xreal , magic lens or HoloLens, then the Vision Pro has a much higher field of view of the content and the ability to display things that are darker than the real world , in exchange for looking at a screen of the world instead of directly at it. Those trade offs are subjective so I won’t focus on them because the tech is so different.

If you compare to other VR headsets with cameras feeding video to the screen, there’s a lot:

1. Clarity is higher. If you look at the footage from their product video which they said is shot from device, it’s a lot more stable and clear than anything up until you get to the $6k Varjo XR-3.

2. Latency is lower apparently. Most other headsets have more of a delay between photon in to photon out based on people who’ve tried it.

3. Better reprojection of the image. If you look at videos of pass through from the Quest Pro, as you move, things warp in the view. From videos from the vision pro, it doesn’t seem to have any of that. (Obviously I’m just taking each company at its word that videos are honest)

Supposedly the Quest 3 is significantly better passthrough than the Quest Pro but very few people have tried it and said anything in depth about it, so it’s too early to judge.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by semi-extrinsic on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:56AM (#36586739)
I quite frankly don't understand what makes this the most advanced consumer tech ever.

What about mRNA vaccines? Centimetre-accuracy differential GPS navigation systems that fit the palm of your hand, like the uBlox f9p? 3D printers like the Ultimaker S5 that can feed carbon fiber thread into the print? High-end cameras like the Sony A1?

What is the defining feature(s) that makes a new VR headset so much more advanced?

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by rbanffy on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:05AM (#36586860)
It really pushes the envelope on many fronts - thermals, displays, materials, sensor integration, specialised hardware… I would never expect any rollout like that to go as planned.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by justapassenger on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:56AM (#36587548)
All of them are basically iterations on current customer devices, with main advantages coming mostly from: 1. Apple willing to attach mind boggling price tag to it. You can engineer much more things if price tag is 10x of industry leader (oculus 2). 2. Apple is taking a big shortcuts with external battery, that gives you a lot of extra power, space and thermal leeway.

I’m not saying that they didn’t make something great - it does seem great. And given it’s Apple, they’ll likely have great polish and attention to detail, that make a HUGE difference.

But it’s not a best thing since sliced bread. It’s not a technological breakthrough. It’s “just” a new generation of customer electronic device, that’s better than previous one.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by semi-extrinsic on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @11:53AM (#36588326)
If you replace "display" with "image sensor", the Sony A1 pushes the envelope on all those fronts as well.

And of course Apple is buying the displays for their headset from Sony, so who is doing the envelope pushing there?

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by arijun on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @10:19AM (#36587062)
I don’t know that I agree with the wording of the parent post, but I understand the sentiment. It does include a lot of hardware that is relatively cutting edge, and the insanely low latency on the system is reflected in that.

While calling it “the most advanced” might be a bit of a stretch, the sophistication of the hardware was something that I wouldn’t have previously thought possible. Some of your counter examples fall short of that complexity. The actual mRNA vaccines are pretty technologically simple, the complexity in differential gps is in its algorithms rather than hardware, and is that camera really groundbreaking (genuine question).

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by justapassenger on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @11:07AM (#36587662)
> The actual mRNA vaccines are pretty technologically simple,

Apple vision is even more technologically simple. You get the screen, attach some sensors to it, sprinkle cameras, add CPU, battery, lenses and you’re done.

> the complexity in differential gps is in its algorithms rather than hardware,

I could somehow understand your ignorance when it comes to mRNA - it’s outside of typical software engineer field of expertise. But GPS?

Yeah, complexity is just in algorithms. Building a satellite that can survive decades in space, building and attaching extremely precise clock to, some solar panels and antennas, thrusters and few other minor details, then getting that onto the rocket and injecting into very precise orbit - that’s an easy part! And especially doing that in 1970s!

All those things are easy compared to leet code! /s

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by as_bntd on Thursday July 06, 2023 @07:05PM (#36624528)
That said, the Vision Pro will also push the envelope when it comes to software, or so it seems.
Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by antifa on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @12:00PM (#36588439)
The Apple Vision Pro is much more advanced than a random 2023 Intel laptop or any Android device.

You mentioned some cool tech stuff, but it's all too categorically random and distantly unrelated for a fair and meaningful comparison.