I'm not sure you can put this on women - since not only can men can be into men, but women can take steroids (and of course be into both men and women). Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner - while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else.

I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.

Human behavior lies on a normal distribution, so the fact that some women take steroids doesn't detract from the motivations of the substantially larger portion of men who use them.

> Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner

The word "necessary" is one you uttered.

> while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else.

What relevance does that have? Roids are a different set of tradeoffs from that of working out and playing sports.

> I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.

The backlash is not founded on the novelty of gender affirming care; it usually hinges on whether the form of gender affirming care that most people think of when they hear that term is medically sound in many cases and the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder. Some people are pushing back against the very concept of gender affirming care, yes, but the debate is way more complex than that.

> and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.

Not everyone agrees that every form of "gender affirming care" is equivalent, or whether it needs to be overly intellectualized in such a manner. A modern westerner might be convinced that use of Rogaine should be classified as "gender affirming care" when, in reality, the proximal motivation for the vast majority of men using Rogaine is because they want to keep their hair.

I'll state it more clearly here because you seem resistant to really think about what I have said - there are men and women of all sexual orientations using steroids. Are you certain that a disproportionate number of straight men, out of the group of those who lift, are users of steroids? Or are you really just projecting your own feelings and insecurities onto a group of people you don't know, and asserting it as fact? Because it sounds like there's a touch of resentment towards women (implying they're really to blame for this) in your comment, and that's what I was primarily taking issue with.

> the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder

This is the kind of thing people said about being gay, bi or lesbian back in the day, and only the most hateful and bigoted say that now. In ten years time you'll either look back at comments like this and cringe with embarrassment, or you'll be one of those miserable, hate-filled bigots. I hope for your sake it's the former.

Gender affirming care actually can include gender-affirming procedures for cisgender people such as reconstructive or cosmetic surgeries. Under that frame I don't see how "I need higher T to feel like a real man" is much different.

Sure, if you want to deliberately conflate different issues.

Only if you think that comparing a trans man who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man to a biological male who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man is silly or deceptive.

If a woman wants to take testosterone to deepen her voice and change her hair pattern, that's up to her, but she'll never be a man. Let's be realistic here.

They're really not different issues, though. Most men using TRT would cite, in some fashion, wanting to feel more manly. That is gender affirmation.

Testosterone is beneficial for everyone. If a man or woman wants to do TRT, it is not illegal to do so. But if they cite some kind of gender dysphoria, it is suddenly extremely taboo.

It's a bit humorous living in a society where roided out podcasters complain about people not accepting their natural identities or hormones

Only tangential to the theme, but continuing your thought, in my experience the rewards for having a chiselled aesthetic comes more from men than women. It's a status marker amongst (some groups of) men. The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.

What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same.

A chiseled look not enough to land someone on its own, but it absolutely will get you a conversation from women who otherwise would not have even talked to you.

And it would get you not even passing glances from other women because they don't like that look.

> What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same.

There are different women with different preferences. This comment, on its face, doesn't sound like you're talking about a singular woman, but lamenting the fact that one woman is not upfront about the preferences of...another woman she's never met.

I am saying that:

- after I started lifting, I started getting attention and conversations I did not get before

- young men are not complete idiots, and can observe that this is true

In my adult life, I've been both a beanpole and a fairly muscled dude(495 lbs squat, 275 bench, 600 DL)

I had women attracted to me both times, but the type of woman was very different. I also got groped and felt up far more and other far more overt displays of interest by women when muscled.

I agree that there are feedback loops. There are also things that women do which some speculate are motivated more by the feedback of other women than of men.

> The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.

Visit your local bookstore (if there still is one!) and tell me what the men on the covers of those romance novels look like.

Depends on the romance novels. Some women want Fabio, others want a sexy doctor or a vampire. Certainly lots of women do want hunky guys, but the gay community has had a whole taxonomy of sexy body types for decades through physique magazines and the like.

Isn't that the case with all gender-associated traits though? Women wouldn't dress the way they do if society in general didn't reward them for doing so.

That's the point.

Same could be said about "real gender affirming care".

It's all this pesky society that won't take your word for anything.

There is the whole feeling younger, stronger, healthier aspect that people really like.

Taking exogenous steroids is usually contraindicated. Some people will take steroids for other reasons, but a key reason many people work out the gym is for the physique. Speaking as if nobody is going to the gym to look good to other people is a form of denial.

Wait now it's "other people" - before you were pretty certain the problem was women

Gay/bi youth are estimated to abuse steroids about 5-6 times as much as exclusively heterosexual boys. I don't know what % of the fitness community are gay, but it's A Lot, more so in the bodybuilding/powerlifting demographic vs general athletics. Hypermasculinity and homo/bisexuality have been culturally intertwined for millennia, the Iliad is centered on just such a relationship.

This is an interesting find and explains why “ravenstine” has sort of disappeared from this thread, having asserted that this use of steroids is simply down to men wanting to impress women (then doubling down in it, and sprinkling in some anti-trans stuff in to boot)