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Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by majormajor on Monday June 26, 2023 @06:48PM (#36486896)
The purpose of real estate development is to make real estate more valuable.

So if you have laws restricting that development you need to look further than just "real-estate investors don't want development."

Even ones not doing the development benefit financially - landlords love being able to raise the rents cause other people in the area built a bunch of new shit.

The better off - and therefore more politically-connected - you are as a homeowner, the more you care about "I don't want the wrong people living next to me" compared to "I need to maximize short-term property values." (And the long-term property values trends clearly shows that cities with more development, that more people want to move to, are where you find ROI.)

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by pitaj on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:56PM (#36487430)
> The purpose of real estate development is to make real estate more valuable.

Nope. It's to make money for the developers.

> Even ones not doing the development benefit financially - landlords love being able to raise the rents cause other people in the area built a bunch of new shit.

Gentrification is a result of shortage. When wealthier people are priced out of rich neighborhoods, the only place for them to go is poor neighborhoods. It just so happens that poor neighborhoods with the least amount of political power are the first ones to be redeveloped when there's a shortage of housing.

> And the long-term property values trends clearly shows that cities with more development, that more people want to move to, are where you find ROI.

Reversed causation. It's literally just supply and demand. Places with high demand and not enough supply have growing property values. Places that are actually able to build housing to even kinda meet demand are doing much better.

You can still see a ton of development without that development actually being enough to reduce housing prices. Often there's not even enough development to meet the rate of growth in a given city.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by majormajor on Monday June 26, 2023 @10:11PM (#36488161)
> Nope. It's to make money for the developers.

Sure.

Let's look a simple condo case: Developer pays X for property. Developer spends Y to build a building. Developer sells N units for Z. To make money, NZ has to be greater than XY aka the total value of that parcel is now higher.

> Reversed causation. It's literally just supply and demand. Places with high demand and not enough supply have growing property values. Places that are actually able to build housing to even kinda meet demand are doing much better.

Yeah, short-term, why was that parcel before the condo building worth less? Because there was less demand for what was there before than for what was there after it. Development increase short-term values by providing immediate units with nicer amenities or better condition or more size or whatever. Probably pretty uncontroversial.

But also development increases long-term values by continuing to grow long term demand. Development, residences, businesses, services - in the most successful cities, all that flow of money produces more and more demand and value over time. Not a lot of demand to live on an empty lot in the middle of nowhere where there's not a nice house and there's no nearby jobs...

So flip the causation: if there hadn't been development to allow all the people in [popular city of your choice] in the first place, it wouldn't be so popular and have such high demand today. That's not completely separate from geographical factors like rivers, but it's also got a lot to do with development - take, say, the land where a river meets a train line and compare it to the land downstream without the train.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by aetherson on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @12:23AM (#36488883)
When you build new housing (as in, increase the number of units of housing that are available in total), you make your lot more valuable, which makes other lots less valuable. So a developer makes makes money by making their lot more valuable, but they do not "make real estate more valuable" generally.

This is much like, you know, every other thing in the world. When a shoe manufacturer makes shoes, their shoes have value, but the value of all other shoes are slightly less because there's now one more competitor for demand for all those other shoes.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by andyferris on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @01:02AM (#36489096)
With shoes, sure.

With housing, it depends. There can be a proximity effect. The old house next to all the nicely redeveloped new houses is now worth more, even if the total number of bedrooms hasn't changed during the redevelopment, because it is in a nicer environment (and a buyer might want to redevelop the old house, and live in a nice house in a nice suburb).

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by aetherson on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @12:38PM (#36495259)
That's been repeatedly empirically shown not to be true. New housing depresses the price of existing housing (very slightly), even hyper-locally.
Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by majormajor on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @05:56PM (#36499209)
That's purely short term.

Long term development is good for everybody's property values, in the exact opposite way that losing businesses and residents is bad for those property values. Phoenix vs Detroit, say.

"Demand" is a dynamic thing, it responds to changes in the built environment of a city, region, or nation. London didn't spring into being fully-formed and fully in-demand at today's levels. It found a virtuous (for property-owners financially) cycle of both increasing housing units and increasing population and demand for certain areas.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by aetherson on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @12:15AM (#36582175)
There are in-demand cities that have relatively affordable housing (like Tokyo), that allow lots of housing to be built, and cities that have extraordinarily high costs of housing (like London) generally have a hard cap on housing development.

While there is obviously some amount of this whole thing where more housing allows more people to come to a city which can in some circumstances drum up more jobs or whatever, I think it's a significant oversimplification to say that more housing increases property values in the long run. Ceteris paribus, more housing depresses property values. It is possible for there to be a feedback cycle where more people in the area increase the overall prosperity -- and thus property values -- of the area, but I do not think that generally more housing is the most important factor there.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:47PM (#36487754)
The thing is that large developers love restricting development because it limits competition.

If there is only a limited supply of land to build further on, it is much easier to corner said market of land and sit on it if the prices are not high enough for your liking. The cheapest development is the kind that larger developers do not bother with (one house to two or three on a single plot of land, rather than large complexes)

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by notatoad on Monday June 26, 2023 @10:50PM (#36488355)
developers love money. they love it so much, they find the easiest way to make more of it.

if the easiest way to make money is to rent houses in a captured market because the local regulations prevent the building of more housing, that's what they'll do. if the easiest way to make more money is to build more housing because the regulations allow for the building of housing, they'll do that too. the problem isn't the developers, they're where the housing comes from. the problem is that at every turn, there's people actively fighting against the buliding of more housing. all they're doing is making money off that situation.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by thwarted on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @01:45AM (#36489307)
This is not the case in SF. Developers want to build, but entrenched interests fight and delay, often using the rhetoric that doing so only makes developers richer and the only reason developers want to develop is so the developers themselves make money (as if this is some kind of purity test of intent).
Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by Qwertious on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @05:11AM (#36490606)
As much as I hate giving NIMBYs any credit, it's important to remember that developers don't want to lower the price of housing - they want to make money, but the higher the cost of housing the more profit they make.

For instance, suppose they build 100 apartments in the suburb of X. They know that for every $1k the price of housing in X drops, they lose $100k. So weirdly, they tend to leave housing vacant and sell it at a drip-feed so that they're always selling less houses than there are buyers - there is a huge difference between selling 3 apartments to 4 buyers, vs selling 4 apartments to 4 buyers. This particularly bad when there are few, large developers instead of lots of small developers, as the few large developers can collude to price-fix much easier.

Please don't interpret this as contradicting the fact that California needs to massively overhaul its zoning/construction permit system - the fact that it can take years to receive permission instead of weeks is a big reason for the price of housing (and raises capex requirements which results in fewer but larger developers, see previous paragraph). Ditto for all the zoning that mandates exclusively single-family homes, and other such pointless exclusionism.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by majormajor on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @06:02PM (#36499279)
Yeah, developers acting in their own interests isn't going to magically fix everything - there's no shortage of examples of how "chart goes up forever" thinking leads to nasty externalities and tends to run into a brick wall at some point, and how manipulative the big players in the real-estate market can be.

But painting NIMBYism in such reductionist (and long-term economic-investment backward) as "development would make real estate investors and developers lose money" would just result in people fighting entirely the wrong battles with entirely the wrong message to actually have a chance at changing things in a useful way.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by bobthepanda on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:36AM (#36502367)
SF is not the only place with a housing crisis. In fact I would say SF is a pretty extreme case.

Seattle and NYC are both examples of places that funnel all development into a select few areas where the market for land is cornered.

Re:Why Britain Doesn’t Build by DeathArrow on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @04:47AM (#36490456)
> the more you care about "I don't want the wrong people living next to me"

Then, by some modern definition, you are a nazi and a bigot.