Societal norms have changed.

It used to be if a kid was misbehaving or damaging property, you could, as a random adult, tell them to stop. Now, you can't dare speak without the potential of an ugly confrontation because you dared talk to their little price or princess.

If that's the norm, I'd rather not have stranger's kids around in public spaces.

We could redress that norm, though?

Similarly, it used to be that a village raised the kids. We somehow shifted that so that the liability and work is to be borne by the immediate parents, and them alone.

It used to be that children were the retirement plan, now that retirements are funded with pooled financial instruments that direct link has been severed. Now the benefit of educating children is pooled but the cost is individualized, some people are figuring that they can optimize their personal gain by minimizing their own investment in their children.

I'd push that you could equally frame the narrative that many external entities found ways to extract profit out of neighborhoods? Easy examples are small shops that used to have much of the profit go local.

Sadly, this isn't as easy as "support local bookstores." They are also value extracted, at large, by the publishing mechanisms at play.

That is to say, it is easy to blame the parents for neglecting their kids. But... it is far more complicated.

It is nice to have spaces that include kids and spaces that are reserved for adults.

It is nice to have places reserved for lots of things. So, I am not stating that these things should not be allowed to exist.

I will assert that places which don't teach the younger generations to interact in them, and instead forbid them from being there, are doing themselves a disservice.

But if there are "quiet hours" or "adult swim" times, that makes sense. All the more so when there are kids around to see how that operates. :D

There is more to this than immediate comfort or being childish.

On one hand is taking responsibility for your kid and ensuring they are not a nuisance for other people. You should not outsource your responsibilities.

On the other hand understanding that kids are not full grown adults and that raising one is hard. It's also about understanding that if everyone stops having kids society will collapse in a couple of decades.

I responded slow to you on this, as I'm not entirely sure on direction.

I certainly was too vague in my opening post. Not wanting to be around someone is, all told, fine. When I say "can't handle kids being around," I'm largely talking about the ones that have adult tantrums.

My main concern is we seem to have taken the view that parents are "outsourcing their responsibilities." But, so has society, as a whole. It isn't any individual's responsibility to make sure kids have a safe place to be kids. Both loudly and quietly. It is, ultimately, everyone's. As such, if you build a place that you don't let kids in, don't be surprised when the kids don't know how to behave in that place.

So much "public space" has been reduced to isolated pseudo private islands where people want to be out, but also want everyone else to not be there. I'm not saying we should all be one communal table, but I do hate that we all seem to always want the private booths, if you will.

I’m hypersensitive to noise and kids make a lot of noise. A cafe like this would be one of the few I could go to.

I'm somewhat sympathetic. Especially so as I know this can range heavily in impact on folks. Such that wanting a place reserved for low noise makes sense. Educating kids on how to act in those environments is important, and can't be done by forbidding them from being there. Often you are left with adults that then don't know how to act in those places, either.

I have on rare occasion asked parents of kids to be more mindful, I received the sort of vitriol one should expect from parents who have thus far failed to instil manners into their kids. Not once has any good come from it - so I have given up. There is no education happening there and there is clearly nothing I can do about it. Parents especially seem oblivious to noise of own kids. For the cafe, instead of making judgment calls on a case by case basis which can cause insult to the parents it's simply easier to have a blanket ban. I could see it being a problem if the cafe was the only place in existence, but children can practice their manners elsewhere, there are plenty of other places for them to go. I don't see how having one additional place would improve their manners.

I'd argue the point is not to "ask the parents to mind their kids," but to engage with the kids. This could be as simple as saying hello for some kids, as they almost certainly haven't really registered that there are others around. It could be broadcasting good behavior. It could be all of the above.

The easy push back is it isn't your responsibility. I'm rather uninterested in apportioning who should do what. It is in your interest to help, though. However you can.

The harder pushback will be that some parents won't like you engaging with their kids. That is an education that we somehow seriously perverted in our culture. Letting the village raise the kids takes education and engagement all around.

Giving the kids a direct talking to is even less productive, I don’t know what fantasifull world you preside but it bears little semblance to what I perceive to be reality. In the US you have no idea how the parents will react when acting as advocates for the kids, enough will act violently to make it a very bad idea.

I fully grant that having kids changes the dynamics. A lot. But I'm not saying to scold or "having a direct talking" with the kids. I'm saying to engage. It works far better than you give credit there.

Now. I also fully grant that I may be speaking from privilege. Mayhap something about me looks more approachable for whatever reason. I lament that I don't know how to spread whatever that is.

Why?