> natural scrolling is just an awful idea for mouse

IMO there’s no objective reason why. Natural scrolling is not what a lot of people are used to with a mouse, but it’s perfectly usable and even more consistent if you’re using the Magic Mouse, which uses a touch surface instead of a mechanical wheel. I, for example, always make my Windows and Linux machine use natural scrolling like I’m used to from my Mac and my life isn’t any better or worse because of it.

Unlike for touch devices, it is no better or worse - but as scroll wheel operation already is incredibly well established, most already have an intuitive assumption of behavior and switching forcing the user to switch only annoys them.

It is even part of our language: you "scroll down".

As an “ambidextrous” scroller, it’s just a matter what you’re scrolling: Are you scrolling the scrollbar down, or the content of the window?

I think regardless of the direction you move your fingers, “scroll down” means the same thing: “scroll to a lower part”

"Scroll down" could refer to the motion of the wheel or the motion of the viewport.

When I scroll down I’’m referring to the active window’s motion. Right now I couldn’t tell you what motion I use. I use a trackpad and mouse.

I thought the same as you until I once got a new Mac and forgot to switch off natural scrolling during the initial setup. You scroll down on a page far more often than you scroll up, at least in my day-to-day. Natural scrolling on the mouse wheel makes scrolling down an easier motion on my right middle finger than with classic scrolling. It's easier to push out than to pull in.

> natural scrolling is just an awful idea for mouse users

I'm the opposite - I was surprised by how much of an improvement I found natural scrolling after decades of computer use. I now use an autohotkey script when on windows to get the same behavior as I get on macOS.

I can certainly see the switching cost not being worth it and wanting a setting that applies to the mouse and not the touchpad, but I'm failing to see how it's anything other than a switching cost.

> I now use an autohotkey script when on windows to get the same behavior as I get on macOS.

Is there something specific here that's not just toggling the scroll direction to the right value in window's settings menu? It's had it for years at this point.

> I can certainly see the switching cost not being worth it and wanting a setting that applies to the mouse and not the touchpad, but I'm failing to see how it's anything other than a switching cost.

For me at least, you're fighting against decades of habitual usage. I have a mental model for how I expect my controls to work. I could switch - but I see zero value in doing so (what's the upside?) and a whole lot of wasted effort.

It's like a controller - Inverted exists. I understand that some folks like it. There are rare cases (usually when controlling an aircraft) in games when I might choose to use it. But by far and large... I just do not want an inverted controller. It's making me think harder for zero net benefit (and much worse in game results...).

I've just had the script for over a decade, I didn't know they added it to Windows finally.

On Windows 11, you can’t toggle the scroll wheel direction without registry edit permission. And for USB devices, there’s a unique key for every possible USB port it’s connected to.

> toggling the scroll direction to the right value in window's settings menu? It's had it for years at this point

Are you sure about that? I had to edit some registry values on my gaming machine to get natural scrolling.

The issue happens when you're not "switching", but co-existing across multiple platforms.

For work, I use a Mac as my daily computer, but also use Linux at home, and a ChromeOS for travel. My Mac is heavily customized to behave like my Linux desktop, but there's little hope for ChromeOS, which means all my muscle memory is gone.

I wish we'd have better standards, and at least a universal way to customize keyboard shortcuts. Unfortunately we're far away from that. Even on Mac and Linux.

you can override natural scrolling in default OS X System settings, though.

Not per-device. I like "natural scrolling" on my trackpads, but dislike it with mouse wheels. It's a PITA to visit system settings every time I switch; I've been low-key looking for something like this for some time.

I use this tool to keep natural scrolling on trackpad and normal scrolling on my wheely mouse: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels

Why would you need a mouse when using macOS trackpads? Before switching to MBP (about 10 years ago) I couldn't fathom using trackpad but then after a couple of days of usage I was so hooked up and it _felt_ so natural than I can't imagine using mouse nowadays...

While I agree that Mac trackpads are fantastic, there's still a need for variety. For some reason, I don't feel at home using a trackpad in certain programs, such as Photoshop. The Magic Mouse feels better in that scenario, like I have a little more control.

For general computer use and coding, I prefer the trackpad.

Ah, YMMV. I don't do any graphics/precise movement - mostly coding/shell/typing) and in this case trackpad is simply excellent - movement is precise and it's perfectly handy/accessible.

I generally prefer the trackpad for productive tasks, but I never got the hang of using it for my weird Minesweeper obsession. A mouse has a lot of non-input leverage and physical control that’s very hard to replicate (for me, others swear by trackpads even for high pace, high accuracy pointer input like this).

Sometimes I'm using it as a laptop, the touchpad is absolutely great, I wouldn't do it any other way.

Other times, I have it plugged into a monitor and a desktop keyboard. In those cases, I want a real mouse plugged in.

Because mouse has more buttons and can use better gestures and rocking clicks to go back and forth

I did use a lot of gestures (especially in browsers, Opera from 10-15 years ago?) but with trackpad you have virtually the same? Single tap=left click, two-fingers tap = right click, cmd+tap = middle click. Two fingers swipe left/right = navigate forward/backward?

What about 2-4 side mouse buttons? What about wheel left/ right motion? What about optional infinite scroll?

I never used those? I usually preferred keyboard shortcuts so laptop (MPB) with hands on the keyboard + occasional use of touchpad for "movement" was more than enough?

> I never used those?

Sure, but presumably your original question wasn't addressed to yourself? With a better external keyboard you don't have a trackpad, and even with the internal one sometimes it's more convenient to use the more capable tool

Do people really have that much of an issue with it? In my brain it is much like left-vs-right-side-driving; just a mode in my brain.

The first couple of seconds using it differently are confusing, then _click_, brain switches over.

Maybe this only happens if you regularly need to use different machines.

I was still using a mouse when natural scrolling came out and it was a huge improvement. My brain immediately connected the scroll wheel to the content and it made a lot more sense. The unnatural scroll always seemed backwards and focuses too much on the particular mechanics of moving a scroll bar button instead of directly manipulating the content.

When I use someone else’s computer that uses the old scroll direction it just seems clunky and artificial.