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Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by ortusdux on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:45AM (#36448473)
This is a rather jaded take. The article covers the overlap of two newsworthy things:

#1 - To the best of our knowledge, the forests of the region were actively managed via fire for thousands of years. This changed a few hundred years ago, and the result is the unprecedented fires we have been experiencing. The government is reacting by greatly increasing funding for prescribed burns which, to the best of our knowledge, is the best solution at this time.

#2 - The state is bound by federal treaties with the sovereign nations that reside within its borders. The bounds of these treaties are hotly contested. The sovereign nations believe that the treaties grant them the right to the lifestyle they historically had. The federal government wants to curtail activities they believe, if unchecked, might cause lasting negative effects. One of the rights these sovereign nations had restricted were controlled burns, which they call cultural burns. These rights are being slowly returned now that the state and feds view controlled burns in a more positive light.

There is a 3rd indirect element to this article, which is that it is trying to address an audience that has been affected by years of the Smokey the Bear 'all fire is bad' mentality.

You should reread the article. I'm pretty sure you brought along the baggage you are complaining about.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by csharpminor on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:22PM (#36449034)
The messaging around managed fires by indigenous peoples is a smart narrative for California.

You will not persuade hardcore preservationists in California by listing out the economic/quality of life benefits of controlled burns. They (and I am generalizing) have a deep passion for returning nature to its natural state.

The key to changing preservationists minds is not to say "there are many benefits to controlled burns (for humans)" but rather, "the state we are creating in forests without burns is not natural."

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:36PM (#36449208)
This is exactly what is happening. People have been arguing for controlled burns for decades, and they're finally making headway now that that they have a relatively bulletproof argument: these fires are a newer development since humans settled this land, the original settlers had a tested and proven method for dealing with them, so let's go back to doing that.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by beauzero on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:57PM (#36449474)
History of fire lookouts. https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r1/recreation/?cid=fsp5_03080.... What caused the wildfires of 1910 https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb54447...

...just because it is interesting.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by throw0101a on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:06PM (#36449593)
> They (and I am generalizing) have a deep passion for returning nature to its natural state.

"Natural state" is a term with a debatable definition. Is it:

* how it was when the Native Americans lived on it and did whatever they did

* how it was when there are no humans around at all

And these aren't even necessarily the only definitions, or a binary choice (it could be a spectrum/tunable).

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by civilitty on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:34PM (#36449917)
Oh it gets worse than that: we're in an interglacial period right now, coming out of an ice age.

When the Bering Strait ice bridge formed and the descendants of native peoples migrated down through the American continent, California was not a dry desert. It was probably covered by lush forests and wetlands with a much lower sea level than today so there's literally no way to return it to that "natural state"

With the Kelp highway hypothesis [1], humans were here for most of that transition so really there's a whole list of "natural states" to pick from (that we largely can't return to)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_migration_(Americas)#K...

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by scottLobster on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:06PM (#36451604)
You're looking for rationality in an irrational position. These "preservationists" are really just environmental Catholics. Underneath the environmental rhetoric, they've internalized a version of original sin and desire to submit themselves to punishment for said sin. To suggest modern solutions and forward progress would be to suggest that the sinners could erase the original sin by sinning more.

To convince them to take action you have to validate their self-imposed guilt with images of reverting to noble savages clapping hands and playing pan-flutes around a fire while the animals sway in time to the music.

There was a time I would have said these people need education, now I'll settle for using their guilt to herd them in the correct direction.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by geon on Friday June 23, 2023 @05:33PM (#36452432)
One could argue that anything that ever happens is natural, since humans are part of nature.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by the8472 on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:06PM (#36449596)
Well technically, controlled burns aren't natural either.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by ch4s3 on Friday June 23, 2023 @02:09PM (#36450327)
Right, but people were engaged in burning since the glaciers retreated. So there's no possible pre-burning ecology to return to since the glaciers are LONG gone and the mega-fauna all died. So we can have either unpredictable, large-scale burns or we can have predictable controlled burns that the ecosystem had adapted to for the better part of 15k years.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by BurningFrog on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:28PM (#36449845)
There is also the fact that the natural state includes letting lightning induced fires burn out.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by 2devnull on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:34PM (#36449913)
So you think they’re playing the race card for pure psychological manipulation purposes? That’s a bit cynical, even for me!
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by bequanna on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:36PM (#36449936)
Excellent point!

When two conflicting woke ideas meet, which one wins?

Here it sounds like white guilt beats environmental virtue signaling.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by Gordonjcp on Friday June 23, 2023 @03:19PM (#36451078)
> They (and I am generalizing) have a deep passion for returning nature to its natural state.

Which is what's happening.

Its natural state includes devastating wildfires every so often when lightning touches off dry undergrowth that hasn't been cleared away for years.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by merpnderp on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:34PM (#36451876)
* * *
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by Spooky23 on Friday June 23, 2023 @02:03PM (#36450271)
The cynical take usually wins. The public as a whole is ignorant of history, couldn’t care less about indigenous people, and is keenly worried about any sort of threat.

The first time the controlled burn goes out of control the initiative will be back to square one.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by mike_d on Friday June 23, 2023 @03:36PM (#36451268)
> To the best of our knowledge, the forests of the region were actively managed via fire for thousands of years.

"Native Americans" arrived here about 30,000 years ago. For all the time prior to that forests were actively managed by controlled burns conducted by nature.

The idea that they somehow had some advanced knowledge that Europeans lacked has no scientific basis, they simply didn't have the modern technology to stop a fire started by lightning.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by nullc on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:27PM (#36451808)
> they simply didn't have the modern technology to stop a fire started by lightning.

Or as much fixed and immobile infrastructure that would be endangered by fire-- if there is nothing you care about nearby, why not set a fire to aid in hunting or to clear out plants you can't eat in favor of ones you can?

Just because they intentionally set fires that doesn't itself make it environmentally good-- it's an extraordinarily racist view that the indigenous people weren't capable of environmental destruction just because they were less effective at it than industrial civilizations. The noble savage protector of the land is a racist fantasy of people raised on a diet of Disney movies, not reality.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by 2devnull on Friday June 23, 2023 @05:19PM (#36452291)
Right. For some reason people have figured out that “noble savage” is racism, but there’s a bit of latency when it comes to “ignoble white man” flavor of racism.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by p_j_w on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:48PM (#36451993)
>forests were actively managed by controlled burns conducted by nature.

This is, by definition, not a controlled burn.

Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by mike_d on Friday June 23, 2023 @05:19PM (#36452289)
It is, just controlled in a larger macro sense than what humans are capable of.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by ortusdux on Friday June 23, 2023 @05:45PM (#36452569)
What they knew was that it was easier to hunt and forage in forests after fire had removed the underbrush. They knew that they would be back next year chasing dear, so they decided to light a fire on the way out to make it easier. No advanced knowledge needed. As time went on, the practice became a ritual.
Re:California will begin backing intentional burns to contro... by dang on Friday June 23, 2023 @07:27PM (#36453629)
Please make your substantive points without swipes, such as you crossed into at the end. Your comment would be fine without that bit (and maybe the beginning bit as well, though that wasn't so bad).

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html