News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by sublinear on Sunday June 18, 2023 @11:25PM (#36386983)
> they secretly sell drugs to America to make them useless and make society unstable

That is quite a non sequitur. Who is being forced to take drugs or listen to extremist propaganda? Those are deliberate choices made by people with low impulse control, and China has nothing to do with that.

The instability of American culture is currently seen as an intrinsic virtue. China is not causing any change. They're just apparently exploiting what was already the dumbest part of America. Even America's allies do this. If America finally grows up it would be a good thing and the only way that will probably happen is more self-inflicted disaster.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by jraby3 on Sunday June 18, 2023 @11:39PM (#36387050)
There’s a pretty strong connection to them supplying fentanyl to the US through Vancouver.

https://www.jordanharbinger.com/sam-cooper-how-the-west-was-...

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by diordiderot on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:46AM (#36388043)
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by skeeter2020 on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:53AM (#36390516)
there's several magnitudes of difference between a couple of criminal cops and the wholesale import from China though
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by Dah00n on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:25AM (#36388627)
Anyone being unbiased who claim to know enough about PRC to point at the state being behind it doesn't use the wrong and derogatory term for the Communist Party of China ("CCP", it's CPC). That's like 60 minutes making a documentary about the Federal Investigation Bureau or the Party Republican.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by trashtester on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:14AM (#36389339)
That's like claiming it would be derogatory to label the URSS as USSR or the KPD the German Communist Party.

Then again, I don't care if someone thinks that a reference to a communist party is negative, as long as the negativity is about the communism aspect (as opposed to the ethnicity or general culture of that country). Just like I don't care if the NSDAP would find it insulting if I call their party the Nazi party.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by Dah00n on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @10:40AM (#36404735)
* * *
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by trashtester on Wednesday June 21, 2023 @08:39AM (#36417697)
I skimmed that page, and all I found was some group stating that placing the country name before the party name is somewhat racist. Which I suppose could be an artifact from when Lenin and Stalin were trying to incite world revolution through the Comintern, when the communist movement wanted to eradicate all borders and make the whole world communist.

Also in your link is a reference to the official CCP website, where they themselves (or so the talk page claims) state while they prefer CPC, CCP is also acceptable.

So it seems to me that this is a nothing-burger, where some activists are fighting on behalf of a group that doesn't really see the reference as a slur in the first place.

Based on this link, CCP was even the original abbreviation, which was changed to CPC as late as 1943 due to pressure from Comintern/Stalin:

https://chinamediaproject.org/2023/03/30/ccp-or-cpc-a-china-...

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by CommitSyn on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:21AM (#36387304)
4 out of 5 pharmacy-filled prescriptions are opioids.¹

In almost every single case, those using these drugs are trying to escape the physical and/or emotional pain. They didn't wake up one day and say "I want to have fun, I'm going to do heroin"

Almost every fentanyl user I've talked to in harm reduction work started out on prescribed painkillers. Whether they got the taste and moved up quick, or just couldn't get their fix and couldn't deal with the horrible weeks of withdrawal and found a place to get it, they didn't just up and start shooting fentanyl one day.

1: https://drugabusestatistics.org/prescription-drug-abuse-stat...

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by heavyset_go on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:35AM (#36387373)
There are also a ton of people who think they're buying real pills with much weaker opioids in them that are actually just fentanyl. It's a tragedy because it can kill first time users and those who assume they're much weaker than they truly are.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by sublinear on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:26AM (#36387331)
4 out of 5 pharmacy-filled prescriptions is not 4 out of 5 prescriptions, let alone 4 out of 5 patients, nor does that statistic say anything about unfilled pharmacy prescriptions or the rate at which people did not develop an addiction. Also you would expect the proportion of pharmacy-filled prescriptions for opioids to go up if the more common prescription for pain is not opiods from a pharmacy.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by CommitSyn on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:31AM (#36387631)
> 4 out of 5 pharmacy-filled prescriptions is not 4 out of 5 prescriptions

As opposed to the non-pharmacy filled prescriptions people pick up?

Your argument is that the statistic only works because so many people don't pick up meds their doctor calls in for them?

I'm not a statistician so maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but that seems like a very weak argument.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by hervature on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:22AM (#36388612)
While 4/5 is shocking any way you look at it, the stronger argument for why this stat is misleading is because it does not take into account how long the prescription lasts. Anecdotally, I was given basically a week's worth after all 3 of my surgeries. Tough to find stats on these things but I could see opiod prescriptions being 2x the number of prescriptions because the number of "doses" are half what other non-addictive substances are. Still, that would make opiods 2/3 of pharmacy-filled "doses".
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by skeeter2020 on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:52AM (#36390504)
Yes, lots of opiod prescriptions for like 4-7 days, but there's got to be more for chronic treatment when you factor in thewy might be 30-90 days between refills.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by CommitSyn on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:20PM (#36394696)
While that is a good point, there are many other frequently prescribed drugs with shorter rx periods - antibiotics, benzodiazipines, sleep medication, emergency medications like inhalers and Epi pens to name a few. If you look at the list of most commonly prescribed drugs¹, opioids aren't even in the top 15, which makes that statistic even more concerning, albeit obvious in hindsight.

1: https://clincalc.com/DrugStats/Top300Drugs.aspx

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by eloisius on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:24AM (#36387322)
> Those are deliberate choices made by people with low impulse control, and China has nothing to do with that.

Tell that to historians, especially Chinese historians, regarding Britain’s opium trade.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by bigger_inside on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:57AM (#36388463)
I was about to comment on the obvious projection inherent in the "the Chinese are forcing drugs on the US" narrative. But it's a classic. If you want to know the nefarious things the US is doing, just look at what the claim their adversaries are doing.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by pigeonhole123 on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:51AM (#36388786)
I think GP's point is the opposite. Most people agree that Britain's opium trade in China was exploitative.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by bigger_inside on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:24AM (#36389011)
I was seconding the comment I replied to, not arguing against a misreading? Though I might be misunderstanding who you mean by GP. I'm confused, sorry
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by dirtyid on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:47AM (#36387711)
Yeah, PRC isn't so much doing an opium war on US as watching US doing an opium war on herself and not helping. Which PRC did when relations where good. Now the relationship is bad, there's no reason to waste PRC domestic resources to assist the US war on drugs.

Also important to note it wasn't the Opium in Opium War that led to the century of humiliation - the humiliation was due to the War that weakened the Qing mandate and economic consequences of the unequal treaties. Great Britain via gunboat diplomacy forced Qing to open trade to opium that Qing tried to ban domestically by seizing stocks from British merchants. The shame/damage wasn't having citizens tripped up on drugs and the social ills that entail, but loss of sovereignty/state capacity over economic affairs that drained silver reserves and reversing trade surplus, which had knock on consequences. Wasn't addicts that brought down Qing, but the throne being weakened due to loss of sovereignty and inability to put down multiple uprisings due to loss of treasure. PRC waging opium war on US comparison only works if PRC was militarily coercing the US to not enforce domestic drug policies. As if that can happen. Does PRC propaganda benefit from US inability to curtail drug use domestically? Yes. But not enough to not cooperate with the US on drug trade when the relationship was good.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by trashtester on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:27AM (#36389422)
> PRC waging opium war on US comparison only works if PRC was militarily coercing the US to not enforce domestic drug policies.

Things can be similar even if they're not identical. If a state actor supports criminal forces to transport harmful substances into a country, it's not so different from supporting the East India Company in doing so.

Also, the purpose matters. When the EIC sold opium in China, the motive was probably profit. If China sponsors sale of opioids in the US, it's more likely to be motivated by a desire to cause harm, which most would consider worse.

> Does PRC propaganda benefit from US inability to curtail drug use domestically? Yes. But not enough to not cooperate with the US on drug trade when the relationship was good.

Well, this implies that you agree that the main purpose is not their own gain, but the harm they can inflict on their perceived rival.

What would it look like if the US developed the same kind of desire to inflict pain and suffering in China, as a goal in itself?

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by dirtyid on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:10PM (#36394557)
The British committing navy for East India company is not remotely similar to PRC inaction to curtail organized crime operations in LATAM when they'd rather direct resources domestically or in ASEAN. The primary attack vector of Opium War was military force, i.e. an actual war. The primary victim throne and treasury not civil society via gunboat diplomacy. One is a state actively investing large diplomatic and military resources to target a specific opponent, another is a state doing nothing / not going beyond to assist another state for what happens in their borders.

Besides, the US drug epidemic predates PRC/fentanyl for decades. PRC is fine with reaping benefits of US dysfunction on the sidelines - most of the world and their politicians get propaganda value from mocking dysfunctional US drug policy. America the Great not being able to control drug use within their borders is an quintessential American problem through and through. Again being indifferent schadenfreude =/= supporting. PRC hasn't even unscheduled fentanyl yet, a legal drug previously scheduled at US request. If PRC was actively malicious, they would go back to skipping Mexico/LATAM as middle man and coordinate at state level to swamp the US directly at scale.

IMO the main benefit of poor US drug enforcement for PRC is MSS (PRC intelligence) being able to exploit opportunity to coordinate with LATAM based PRC triads to build out intelligence networks and influence. Their primary business is money laundering, largely for PRC capital flight. It doesn’t matter who actually provides the drugs/precursor (India/Mexican producers are in the game as well), or if it even needs to be drug trade in the first place.

>inflict pain and suffering in China, as a goal in itself

If US wants to reverse fentanyl trade into PRC they can go ahead. PRC state capacity is much better at dealing with domestic drug trafficking - like many other Asian countries. Otherwise the US has been trying to infiltrate PRC civil society to ideologically undermine CCP for decades despite PRC protest. PRC's ultimately decided to crack down domestically - see western NGO closures, eradicating CIA spy network, or HK protests. Something is uniquely dysfunctional with the US approach when PRC can fight ideas/influence better than the US can fight drug trafficking.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by proletar666 on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @12:03AM (#36399567)
Why blame Hong Kong protests on America, tho?
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by dirtyid on Thursday June 22, 2023 @01:19AM (#36428251)
That was a general remark on western influence, i.e. western NGOs. On HK specifically, see the amount of prominent HK activists who shook hands with US politicians including pompeo, asked US to sanction HK politicians hoping US can exert pressure on domestic PRC affairs. HK also spy hub or Asian with biggest US embassy in region. That connection is now severed with NSL.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by TeMPOraL on Monday June 19, 2023 @02:11AM (#36387823)
> Those are deliberate choices made by people with low impulse control, and China has nothing to do with that.

Not only this is counterproductive, it would be definitely something those hypothetical Chinese agents would say! This sentiment is what you call "the dumbest part of America" - one of personal responsibility when facing dangers that are by design above most people's threshold of self-control. If there is one thing that's likely to destabilize and destroy the western society, it's marketing and advertising industry - it's your own companies that rely on and encourage people blaming failures on themselves, because it lets them use psychological tricks to move wares.

Also:

> Who is being forced to (...) listen to extremist propaganda?

These days, everyone consuming the Internet and western mass media? There are (at least) two extremes in the US politics and culture, and while listening to one may be a choice, it's partly because the other extreme won the meme spreading battle.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by saiya-jin on Monday June 19, 2023 @04:25AM (#36388625)
You call it 2 extremes, from European point of view there are just mild variations of the same right wing approach, and result differences are even milder (ie democrats starting/expanding wars, conservatives allowing recreational cannabis etc).

Not criticizing or anything, but actual extremes look significantly different, wake me up when a proper anarchist sits in White house for example

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by TeMPOraL on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:18AM (#36388968)
I call it two extremes because a lot of people insist on viewing them as Completely Different Things. After all, they have opposite names - "right wing" and "left wing". I'm from Europe too, and to me the extremes both look the same. The specific beliefs may be opposite, but that's just a free variable. The intellectual dishonesty, the belligerence, the hatred, they're all the same.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by faangsticle on Monday June 19, 2023 @07:57AM (#36390010)
Hate to break it to you but the 2 party system is and has been broken for a very long time. You're choosing between two choices that are mostly identical. Introduce some extra parties if you want healthy politics.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by TeMPOraL on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:12AM (#36390158)
I mentioned I'm in/from Europe, not the US, so the 2-party system doesn't really concern me. More importantly though, my comments aren't about the two US parties, but rather the two seemingly opposite extremes of political ideas, that are typically referred to as "left" and "right".
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by skeeter2020 on Monday June 19, 2023 @08:49AM (#36390478)
While the alternative to a 2 party system may seem obvious, a 2+ party system that's not what you actually get. From a US-type "winner take all" with influential groups & individuals, to preportional representation you end up shifting negotiations into shadowy back rooms amongst unelected officials. In addition, that 3rd option is never coming from the middle. The sizeable movements are even more extreme, pulling the major parties further to some sort of preceived binary position on every topic.
Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by newaccount74 on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:20AM (#36388987)
I think it's funny they are calling it "2 extremes" when there's only one side forming armed militias.

Proper left wing extremists were the RAF who murdered people they fought against. Protestors are not extremists.

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by Anthony-G on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:51AM (#36389182)
Which extreme do you consider to have “won the meme spreading battle”?

Genuine question: I purposely don’t spend any time on social media or any other blog/forum that makes use of Internet “memes” so I’m blissfully unaware of what kind of content is circulated. Also, as (another) European, I try to not let myself be overly distracted by American political drama. I need to have some awareness of what’s going on in the US as it influences the political discourse in the rest of the Anglosphere (Hacker News posts like this one suffice for that level of awareness).

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by zod-was-right on Monday June 19, 2023 @03:01AM (#36388123)
> Those are deliberate choices made by people with low impulse control

... I hope you're not in charge of anyone's life

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by chaostheory on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:02AM (#36388856)
> They're just apparently exploiting what was already the dumbest part of America. China is not causing any change.

So just like what the British empire did to China during the century of humiliation with opium? Mainlander hypocrisy is comical

Re:Soviet Union sold titanium to US believing they needed it... by trashtester on Monday June 19, 2023 @06:01AM (#36389241)
> That is quite a non sequitur. Who is being forced to take drugs or listen to extremist propaganda?

Do you feel the same about he Opium Wars?