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Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by doodlebugging on Saturday June 17, 2023 @12:23PM (#36371632)
This is why I taught my kids to sing the alphabet forwards and backwards. If you sing it forwards it can sound like you are saying "elemental pee" which sounds scientifically interesting but doesn't help anyone learn what that letter is supposed to look like.

We used wooden alphabet puzzles as a guide so it could reinforce the idea the you are saying L-M-N-O pretty fast.

Since the ABC song is one of three songs that use the same tune it is easy to teach an infant or toddler their alphabet as you sing them to sleep.

The ABC song, Baa-Baa Black Sheep, Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star all use the same tune.

Add in the backwards ABC's and you get four songs sung with the same tune so that the whole thing becomes tonally monotonous and soothing and it will tend to relax your child as you rock and sing.

With practice I got pretty good at mixing verses from these four songs on the fly so that the song eventually morphed into a single tune with disconnected lyrics. I used it as a challenge to keep myself awake while I rocked them to sleep.

For grins, the Backward ABC lyrics are:

Z, y, x, w, v, u, t...

S, r, q, p, o, n, m...

L, k, j, i, h, g, f...

E, d, c, b, and a.

Now I've sung them backwards to you,

Can you sing them backwards too?

Pretty easy to see how each letter breaks free of the original forward limitations.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by SV_BubbleTime on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:24PM (#36372261)
I like this post, but I cannot get your backwards ABC rhythm to make sense.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by rocketbop on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:29PM (#36372311)
Yeah I can’t get it to fit the usual melody. Did you happen to put it on YouTube?
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by doodlebugging on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:54PM (#36372590)
No I haven't recorded it for YouTube. I do have it on some home video somewhere, maybe. I would probably have to dig for that and maybe do a format conversion from 8mm tape.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by Riseed on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:44PM (#36372483)
This works for me:

Z, y, x, w, v, u, t...

S, r, q, p, o, n, m...

L, k, j,

I, h, g,

F, e, d, c, b, and a.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by doodlebugging on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:28PM (#36373671)
Yes this also works but the reason I went with "L-K-J-I-H-G-F" over this deals with the fact that I can get each letter distinctly enunciated whereas if I mash the last line as you did there can be some muddying of the first two letters and you end up with another "elemental pee" problem in teaching the letters.

I think F and E are too easy to turn into "effy" when you sing it out.

It's a personal preference. Yours works too.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by Riseed on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:39PM (#36373790)
Oh, you're right. That is a good point. And after looking at your detailed breakdown [0], your original line breaks do make sense. It does work better singing as "Baa Baa Black Sheep" with different lyrics than as "The Alphabet Song" with backwards lyrics.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36373590

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by doodlebugging on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:20PM (#36373590)
You have to do it like you handle the switch from Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star to Baa, Baa, Black Sheep.

NOTES = 0

ABC = 1

BWABC = 2

TTLS = 3

BBBS = 4

[0] C, C, G, G, A, A, (long G)

[1] A, b, c, d, e, f, (g)...

[2] Z, y, x, w, v, u, (t)...

[3] Twin, -kle, twin, -kle, lit, -tle, (star),

[4] Baa, baa, black, sheep, have, you, (any wool)?

[0] F, F, E, E, D, D, (long C)

[1] H, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, (p)... (the elemental problem rises because they crammed an extra letter into this line and distinguishing each individual letter gets muddy because they used the two D notes for four letters - l, m, n, o. This is not optimum)

[2] S, r, q, p, o, n, (m)... (gives each letter an opportunity to be clearly enunciated)

[3] How, I, won, -der, what, you, (are)...

[4] Yes, sir, yes, sir, three, bags, (full)

[0] G, G, F, F, E, E, (long D)

[1] Q, r, s, t, u, (v)... (pause on the F at S, or use a long F between S and T sop that the third and fourth notes merge on S)

[2] L, k, j, i, h, g, (f)... (fits the flow and allows each letter to have a distinct sound)

[3] Up, a, -bove, the, world, so, (high)

[4] One, for the, mas, -ter, one, for the, (dame)

[0] G, G, F, F, E, E, (long D)

[1] W, x, y, and, (z)... (Both notes G, F are merged to handle the single letter they are sounding and the E includes "Y and" to get you to the last letter)

[2] E, d, c, b, and (a). (This handles the rhythm like we see in [1] treatment of the stretching or pause on the third letter of the series)

[3] Like, a, dia, -mond, in, the, (sky)

[4] One, for the, lit -tle, girl, who, lives, down the, (lane)

[0] C, C, G, G, A, A, (long G)

[1] Now, I've, sung, my, A, B, (C's)

[2] Now, I've, sung, them, back, -wards, (to you),

[3] Twin, -kle, twin, -kle, lit, -tle, (star)

[4] Baa, baa, black, sheep, have, you, (any wool)?

[0] F, F, E, E, D, D, (long C)

[1] Tell, me, what, you, think, of, (me).

[2] Can, you, sing, them, back, -wards, (too)?

[3] How, I, won, -der, what, you, (are)

[4] Yes, sir, yes, sir, three, bags, (full)

That's all I got. That's how I sing it. I tried to break out the notes as they flow in each song. Commas separate each note in the song and the parentheses around the last word or letter denote a long note. Where you see two words behind one comma those two words use the same note - "for the" is an example. It all fits for me though I guarantee that there is more than one way to skin this cat. This way works for me.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by Riseed on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:40PM (#36373795)
It took me a bit to get it, but this is an excellent explanation. Thank you :)
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by pfannkuchen on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:33PM (#36372357)
Your kids will beat the field sobriety test!
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by jrockway on Saturday June 17, 2023 @02:30PM (#36373000)
Something I've always wondered is how people actually do the backwards alphabet test. I don't think I could efficiently do it sober, but I do have an O(n^2) algorithm for doing it; sing the ABCs in your head, and only say the letter before the one you've already said.

So like, abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyZ, abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxY, ...

You can also use this algorithm to reverse a linked list, though you will not get the job if you do. I'm wondering if the cops are as picky as Google interviewers.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by saghm on Saturday June 17, 2023 @05:08PM (#36374615)
A few years back for fun, I learned to say the alphabet backwards as quickly as I could. I used basically the same technique I use as a musician to learn complex phrases; start with a short sequence (like "z y x w") and repeat it over as slowly as you need, and increase the speed as you get better at it, then either extend it a few more letters (e.g. "z y x w v u t") using the same strategy or learn the sequence starting with the next letter separately ("v u t s r q") and then "glue" them together when you're proficient with both. It took me only a few minutes of practice to get the whole alphabet this way, and it's stuck fairly well despite not really ever practicing it other than to occasionally show people as a party trick. Strangely, the letters seem to work better in that order for me; I can actually say the alphabet faster backwards rather than forwards, although it's hard for me to to tell if that's actually due to the sounds blending better objectively or due to the fact that I tend to have a bit of trouble with enunciating clearly in general and the "backwards" route skipping some learned bad habits that the forwards route uses.

Since I don't drink any alcohol and don't drive, I can't imagine I'd ever have a chance to use this in a field sobriety test, but I also suspect that a cop who pulled me over wouldn't find it particularly amusing, so I wouldn't be eager to try it anyways.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by doubled112 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @05:10PM (#36374637)
I’ve always assumed a gotcha here is when the driver says “officer, I don’t think I could do this sober” and now they’ve admitted guilt.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by NibblePibblies on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:48PM (#36376571)
Look up the field sobriety test Steve Martin does in LA Story - hilarious
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by bostonvaulter2 on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:14AM (#36387534)
Is this online anywhere? I took a look but couldn't find a snippet on youtube.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by doodlebugging on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:37PM (#36373773)
Funny you mention that since the first time I heard them sung backwards involved a field sobriety test that the driver passed.

I decided that it was a useful skill. Later when our kids were born and the long early morning hours were filled with rocking chairs noises, diaper changes, feeding and burping I took the opportunity to add that version to my song list. Sometimes I ended up singing every song that I knew any words from so it helped a lot when I was tired to focus on one tune.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by ekaryotic on Saturday June 17, 2023 @02:35PM (#36373073)
Are there any colemak enthusiasts teaching their kids the alphabet in colemak order as read from the keyboard.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by codetrotter on Saturday June 17, 2023 @04:21PM (#36374164)
I for one will teach my kids Dvorak.

Single-quote/quote comma/less dot/greater p y … a o e u i d h t n s …

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by Dylan16807 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @04:48PM (#36374431)
If you don't care about rhyming you might as well just change the original song.

abcdefg, hijklmn, opq, rst, uvw xyz

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by kazinator on Saturday June 17, 2023 @06:36PM (#36375422)
* * *
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by TRiG_Ireland on Saturday June 17, 2023 @07:46PM (#36375921)
You're not wrong. That is distressing.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by quietbritishjim on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:02PM (#36376319)
I cant watch the video now, but the British version is a bit like that:

A B C D E F G

H I J K L M N

O P Q

R S T

U V W X Y Z

Yes it doesn't rhyme but it scans so much better that, once you're used to it, the American NLMOP version sounds ridiculous.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by kazinator on Tuesday June 20, 2023 @09:10PM (#36413065)
The LMNOP is just rhythmic variations: you have a run of 16th notes.

Such a pattern of 16ths occurs in "have you any wool" in the English nursery rhyme "Baa Baa Black Sheep", which is sung to the same tune.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by quietbritishjim on Wednesday June 21, 2023 @12:39AM (#36414460)
I agree that sort of flourish is a lot of fun, if it's not in a song trying to teach you something so fundamental.
Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by RheingoldRiver on Saturday June 17, 2023 @08:01PM (#36376003)
For anyone else considering this method, I don't recommend it. I, unfortunately, taught myself the alphabet backwards one day when I was REALLY sick and needed to lie down completely still in a silent room (so I was too bored to do anything else).

Now, I sometimes get confused about what letter comes next. If I'm at `G` am I supposed to say, GFEDCBA or am I supposed to go from my forwards anchor of ABCDEFGH ? This happens when I'm at a nice anchor in my backwards memorization that's a non-anchor in my forwards memorization.

But I mean, yeah, neat party trick that I can say ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA (and also type it really quickly).

Interestingly, my breaks are different from the parent commenter's:

ZYXWVUT

SRQP

ONMLK

JIH

GFEDCBA (this part was easy from the start because I played piano)

No alphabet song involved at all.

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by nojs on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:24PM (#36376436)
> Now, I sometimes get confused about what letter comes next.

Reminds me of this classic, the reverse bike:

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

Re:What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet? by JoeAltmaier on Sunday June 18, 2023 @08:06AM (#36379450)
My whole family can do this. Dad would drill us after supper on summer evenings. We also knew the entire list of Presidents (up to the 1970's anyway). To be different I did the Vice Presidents.

The only one that ever got any mileage out of it was my little sister. At a poker party she was going into the kitchen for some soda. Somebody asked as she entered 'Cindy, can you say the alphabet backward?' As she opened the fridge, got the 2-litre and poured, put it away and left the kitchen she sang the alphabet song backwards. Never stopped to ask why they wanted to know. Just did it and left, cool as a cucumber. My sister is so cool.