How the brain processes German and Arabic

Re:How the brain processes German and Arabic by tharkun__ on Thursday June 15, 2023 @10:11PM (#36350129)

-Ish I guess :)

    Uns ist in alten mæren wunders vil geseit
    von helden lobebæren, von grôzer arebeit,
    von freuden, hôchgezîten, von weinen und von klagen,
    von küener recken strîten muget ír nu wunder hœren sagen

A "mær" (as Maer - imagine an a umlaut) does exist still but the word is so antiquated that I don't expect kids these days to know it. "wunders"? No idea. Something about "wonder"? "vil" sure, viel (a lot). "geseit". No idea. "seit" is that "sein" (to be)? Doesn't fit the rest of the sentence I guess. Definitely need to look that up.

"lobebæren". No damn idea whatsoever. Now "grôzer arebeit", sure that's "grosser Arbeit" but when I look at the "translation to German" (from the middle high German the original apparently is written in) it says it's "groesse Muehsahl".

"hôchgezîten": Hochzeiten? Like weddings? Makes no sense. Maybe "Hochzeiten" as in 'high times'? Funnily same word different pronunciation depending on context :)

"recken" very old word. Again something kids these days probably have no idea about. I do but it's been a while I learned it all. "strîten" means streiten I guess which makes sense given the Recken, but without knowing what those are, not sure. "muget" Sounds like "muggle" but maybe "moeget"? So "moegte ihr". "nu wunder hœren sagen": "jetzt wunder hoeren sagen"? But what does that mean?

Some of this may not be a problem of "Shakespeare's times" vs. today but also "poem language" vs. "regular people language". I have trouble with poems.

I'd write it as this basically:

    Uns ist in alten Maeren viel Wunder <no idea what geseit is>
    von Helden <somethingwhatever>, von grosser Arbeit
    von Freuden, Hochzeiten, von Weinen und von Klagen,
    von kuehner Recken streiten moeget ihr Wunder hoeren sagen

Now even after looking up the two missing words, geseit is gesagt (to say) and lobebaeren just doesn't exist but was somehow translated to something I still would not be able to understand this if it was just read to me. I have to read it myself and actively think about it. On the other hand my sibling posts meandering whole paragraph sentence is very easily understandable.

On the other hand, here's a recipe for strengthening a wooden shield with leather in old English:

    take lether that ys half tannyd and drye hym and shave the flesshe syd
    and take glwu wt water and set yt over the fyere
    and melte yt wt water and then al hote ly yt a pone the leder on the flesshe syde
    and strawe ther on the powder of glasce bete yn a brasene morter ...

I'll stop there so we stay within the same 4 lines. But I had a much easier time reading that than the Niebelungenlied. And yes, my mother tongue is German :)

    take leather that is half tanned and dry him and shave the flesh side
    and take glue with water and set it over the fire
    and melt it with water and then while hot lie it upon the leather on the flesh side
    and strew thereon the powder of glass beaten in a <brasene I had to look up but also makes sense: brass-en> mortar

If anything, except for spelling mistakes like syd vs. syde, I think that's actually more consistent than modern English. I.e. I'd say syd for side is perfect. A y by itself makes the "why" sound. So syd is exactly how I'd write it if I was told to write it just from hearing the word once and knowing the alphabet. Why does it need an e at the end and why would we nowadays write it as side but not pronounce the e (like French sort of, just leave out the last 1-3 letters when pronouncing a word).

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Re:How the brain processes German and Arabic by kevin_b_er on Friday June 16, 2023 @02:12AM (#36352158)

> If anything, except for spelling mistakes like syd vs. syde, I think that's actually more consistent than modern English. I.e. I'd say syd for side is perfect. A y by itself makes the "why" sound. So syd is exactly how I'd write it if I was told to write it just from hearing the word once and knowing the alphabet.

Because it used to be pronounced with the e, not unlike Seite, but has long since been dropped. In the 1300s, in the time of Chaucer and The Canterbury Tales, this would've been pronounced with the trailing e.

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Re:How the brain processes German and Arabic by tharkun__ on Friday June 16, 2023 @08:23PM (#36365777)

That is awesome info! Very interesting that English used to be more like German in that regard then, i.e. being able to actually kinda write things like you say them (or vice versa).

Do you know if this is more of an exceptional case or was it common for many words?

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Re:How the brain processes German and Arabic by kevin_b_er on Saturday June 17, 2023 @12:23AM (#36367261)

I'm no expert on the subject, but I'm to understand things were somewhat cleaner in the past. A critical problem is that, like many languages, English's pronunciation shifted over the years, but the spelling did not. In truth, I think the spelling was somewhat unstable. It was somewhat subjective back then.

But the spelling became exceptionally bad after the printing press with movable type (i.e. Gutenberg's printing press). The printers decided for themselves on certain spellings and the spellings really froze in place based on the choices the printers made. This was also the period of rapid changes in pronunciation, particularly vowels. But English never really had a spelling reform except Webster's small one in early USA. And yet the spelling was locked in place. Whoops!

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Re:How the brain processes German and Arabic by aleph_minus_one on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:33AM (#36353312)

> A "mær" (as Maer - imagine an a umlaut) does exist still but the word is so antiquated that I don't expect kids these days to know it.

The word [die] Mär/die Märe [the lore, myth] (in modern German one would rather use "die Kunde" (not to be confused with "der Kunde" [the customer])) is used regularly in modern German in the diminutive form: "das Märchen" (the fairly tale). So, a Märchen [fairy tale] is a small lore.

> "wunders"

die Wunder [the wonders].

> "geseit"

In modern German, you would say "gesagt", which is actually rather similar, but it might cause trouble to find this relationship on your own.

> lobebæren

You can immediately see the relationship to the noun "[das] Lob". So you can guess that in modern German you would use "gelobt" (I agree that using "gelobt" sounds a little bit stilted in modern German, but this shall not matter here).

> sure that's "grosser Arbeit" but when I look at the "translation to German" (from the middle high German the original apparently is written in) it says it's "groesse Muehsahl".

Your guess is perfectly correct: the meaning of "Arbeit" has shifted over time, so in modern German, you would rather use the word "Mühsal".

> "hôchgezîten": Hochzeiten? Like weddings?

A wedding is actually a "high time" (Hoch-Zeit). This relationship is slightly obscured in modern German in that if you mean "wedding" the initial "o" in Hochzeit is pronounced differently when meaning "wedding". If you pronounce "Hochzeit" as "Hoch-Zeit", the meaning becomes very clear ("Hochzeit" as in "Hochphase" ["high phase" -> heyday]).

> "recken" very old word.

The word "der Recke" [valiant] is a (slightly old-fashioned) word that does exist in modern German.

> "strîten" means streiten

Exactly; "streiten" in the today less commonly used (but perfectly understandable) meaning "kämpfen" [to combat]. If you are used to the lyrics of the Lohengrin opera

> http://www.wagneroperas.com/indexlohengrinlibretto.html

"streiten"/[der] Streiter is permanently used in this older meaning, for example:

Friedrich: [...] Hier steh' ich, hier mein Schwert! Wer wagt von euch, zu streiten wider meiner Ehre Preis!

Die Brabanter: Keiner von uns! Wir streiten nur für dich!

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Re:How the brain processes German and Arabic by tharkun__ on Friday June 16, 2023 @08:19PM (#36365749)

    used regularly in modern German in the diminutive form: "das Märchen"

Agreed. That word is used and everyone knows it. "Maer" as an actual word. Very much not so. I did not make the connection actually although your explanation makes perfect sense for the origin of Maerchen.

    lobebæren

    You can immediately see the relationship to the noun "[das] Lob"

I did not see that at all and I do not think I'm the only one. Now, once you've told me, I can totally see it. This is exactly my point about not being able to just listen to this or read it and understand right away. I have to stop and think and look stuff up.

    The word "der Recke" [valiant] is a (slightly old-fashioned) word that does exist in modern German.

I never said the word does not exist. Just that, like you also mention, it's old (fashioned) and not in very active use and I do not expect many kids these days to recognize the word. If you read slightly older books about knights and such for boys with a bunch of "kuehne Recken", sure. Otherwise: doubtful in my opinion.

    If you are used to the lyrics of the Lohengrin opera

That's also part of my point. If you're into poems, especially old ones, you'll have a better time. If you're "poem blind" like me, there's no way I can just have someone read the Niebelungenlied in the original to me and understand what's going on. No I am not used to Lohengrin type lyrics.

As for using Streit as a noun, yes, no problem there, though the fact that there's no proper capitalization in the Niebelungenlied text does not help to figure that out. I immediately read it as "streiten" the verb only.

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