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Re:Right versus pragmatic by philwelch on Saturday February 25, 2012 @08:10PM (#3634436)
There are lots of examples of this. Moralistic thinking simply isn't productive in this context. If you build an economic system that depends on everyone voluntarily cooperating rather than acting self-interestedly, self-interested people will ruin it; if your public health strategy for HIV is to discourage people from extramarital sex, lots of people will have extramarital sex and get HIV; if your strategy to compete with BitTorrent is to try and make people feel guilty about using BitTorrent, people will tune you out and use BitTorrent.

Of course, if you used those examples instead of a silly example about designing an office restroom, the HN thread gets derailed by people talking about economics or HIV. One could criticize the HN community for that kind of bikeshedding, but it's more pragmatic to just use a boring, contrived example to sell the point. Certainly, a HN thread won't end up filled with a side discussion about office restroom design.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by mechanical_fish on Saturday February 25, 2012 @10:30PM (#3634698)
Of course we'll change the subject to restroom design. What else is there to say, here, about BitTorrent?

This article, and the Oatmeal comic which inspired it, are great, but they could have been written a decade ago, if one replaced Game of Thrones with Kid A and "BitTorrent" with "Napster". (Ten years ago, Napster had already been shut down for seven months. How time flies.)

We've had this discussion, had it again, printed it on T-shirts and coasters. Apple went and instantiated this concept in the music industry, and made billions of dollars in the process, and even that is old news now.

The sad thing about Marco's argument is that it's not only right, but it applies to itself. Being correct feels great, and it certainly helps, but it's not the same thing as making progress.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by philwelch on Saturday February 25, 2012 @11:02PM (#3634764)
I think outlining the fallacy of applying moralistic thinking ("well people just SHOULDN'T DO THAT") to systems design was the more interesting part of his post, though.
Re:Right versus pragmatic by ChuckMcM on Saturday February 25, 2012 @11:45PM (#3634848)
This is one of the weird things about the information economy. So if you make a gizmo in the goods economy, and price it outside of the demand line, they sit on the shelf and you go broke.

Of course in the goods economy you had a cost of making the item, sure there was R&D and advertising Etc. but each good also has some raw materials so you really can't sell them below a certain price or you lose your shirt.

In the information economy you get this weird artifact. Your 'good' gets copied and distributed without remuneration. This appears to be lost sales, but in fact it is simply that your good is priced outside the demand curve for those buyers. What is even stranger is that you can lower your price all the way to zero if you choose because the marginal cost to make a new one is zero. This gives you tremendous pricing leverage in the info economy and people who use it well typically price high for novelty value early, then lower to capture the larger market, and then lower still to pick up the remnant market. The cost of R&D, marketing, etc can be amortized over all of these and if you look at it as an integral value function you can actually make reasonable pricing decisions.

Of course old school media doesn't get the 'info' economy any more than telling a teenager that the 'fair' price is one that someone will pay even if they think it is too high.

Over time these concepts are making themselves known in the mainstream but it does take waaaay more time than it does to innovate so it seems like its not changing at all.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by philwelch on Sunday February 26, 2012 @02:00AM (#3635046)
There's two sides of this. There's the side where the seller's price is above the demand curve, so the buyer pirates the movie. But there's also the side where the seller's price is below the demand curve, but the buyer pirates it anyway to capture more consumer surplus.

What's really happening is that, the easier piracy becomes, the closer the supply curve comes to turning into a very flat line at price 0. Now, the actual cost to the consumer in time, energy, bandwidth, and guilt is higher than 0, and it's possible to reduce those costs by trading off some actual money cost to get the permission of copyright holders the way Apple or Rdio are doing, but it's not clear that this will last forever.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by hxa7241 on Sunday February 26, 2012 @10:14AM (#3635749)
The idea of selling copies of information is very basically broken. Half the time stuff is made but undersells copies because the producer did not find out no-one wanted it, and the other half, people are prevented from realising value that could actually be freely available.

Such a structure consumes a scarce resource -- creative effort -- wastefully, and restricts an abundant resource -- communicability of information -- unnecessarily. That seems very much the opposite of economically efficient.

Information goods should be more like better kinds of software production. But the current copyright-based system makes it all more like a 'waterfall economy'

http://www.hxa.name/notes/note-hxa7241-20120103T1008Z.html

Re:Right versus pragmatic by Natsu on Sunday February 26, 2012 @06:24AM (#3635370)
What makes you think iTunes won't last?
Re:Right versus pragmatic by philwelch on Sunday February 26, 2012 @11:42AM (#3635972)
What if someone makes a better-designed iTunes that happens to work using piracy instead of legitimate sales? Or comes close enough that $0.99 isn't worth it?
Re:Right versus pragmatic by Natsu on Sunday February 26, 2012 @06:26PM (#3637158)
They've tried. For legitimate competitors, Apple has them outgunned in terms of selection due to all their deals with the labels and such. For illegitimate competitors, Apple has a comparatively huge budget for design/UX.

The "isn't worth it" actually goes the other way at this point: it's isn't worth pirating anything you can get from iTunes. Most of their customers are perfectly capable of pirating stuff, but it isn't worth their time compared to grabbing it from iTunes.

I'm not saying nobody will ever compete with them or that people don't still pirate anyhow, just that they're more than capable of competing with free. They've been successfully doing that the entire time, in fact.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by philwelch on Monday February 27, 2012 @05:07PM (#3640865)
I agree that's the status quo, but Apple's a rather unique organization in terms of their mix of negotiation ability, closeness to Hollywood, and design ability. And there's already cracks showing when it comes to their software quality. Those advantages can't last forever.
Re:Right versus pragmatic by Natsu on Tuesday February 28, 2012 @01:06AM (#3642103)
> Apple's a rather unique organization in terms of their mix of negotiation ability, closeness to Hollywood, and design ability.

That's exactly the part that makes me believe they have staying power.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by greedo on Sunday February 26, 2012 @12:00PM (#3636010)
I think that was called Napster...
Re:Right versus pragmatic by julian37 on Saturday February 25, 2012 @09:03PM (#3634535)
Certainly, a HN thread won't end up filled with a side discussion about office restroom design.

I've upvoted your comment to help ensure that won't be the case.

My other comment being close to the top of the thread at the moment, I'm sorry to have addressed the door design aspect rather than Marco's main point, it's indeed not as interesting a topic for discussion. I might learn something about fire safety today, though. And I'm confident HN voters will make sure there's no derailment.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by Confusion on Sunday February 26, 2012 @03:46AM (#3635170)
Don't be sorry; you're not derailing anything. Just having a discussion on a specific part of the post. It's not obligatory to address the main point of a post; in fact, sometimes the main point is boring and some minor point is far more interesting.

I find it interesting to read these various clever technical solutions for the same problem, even so mundane as "users don't want to touch the doorknob on the way out". As long as they acknowledge it is a problem and don't get into the moral argument about what ought to be.

Some of the ways in which this issue can be addressed may have analogs in the problem space actually being addressed.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by ericwaller on Saturday February 25, 2012 @09:01PM (#3634527)
I actually like the side discussion about restroom design a lot. The difficult part about these types of problems is that the guy who's picking up the paper towels doesn't have the authority to move the trash can.
Re:Right versus pragmatic by dsr_ on Saturday February 25, 2012 @09:34PM (#3634597)
Authority is a funny thing. In many situations, simply doing the right thing -- putting a trashcan in the right place, here -- is much, much easier than getting the notional authority to do it.

Or as so many people have put it, forgiveness is often easier than permission.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by LaGrange on Sunday February 26, 2012 @08:32AM (#3635581)
To root this discussion solidly in hardware, moving the trash can might not be such an easy task — in many restrooms the paper towel baskets are actually embedded in walls. There you would to actually take the basket from elsewhere.

To make the entire thing even more fun, I've actually worked in an office that had relatively strict sanitary requirements (the office contained some food testing labs), and opening the door with a paper tower was obligatory. Didn't stop the management from putting the basket on the other side of the bathroom.

I may actually care about the described issue in restroom context more than in piracy context. But then again, my most common download is books.

Re:Right versus pragmatic by philwelch on Sunday February 26, 2012 @02:01AM (#3635048)
Honestly, I don't mind the tangent that much. I just thought it was worth a gentle ribbing.
Re:Right versus pragmatic by tripzilch on Sunday February 26, 2012 @09:21AM (#3635646)
> Of course, if you used those examples instead of a silly example about designing an office restroom, the HN thread gets derailed by people talking about economics or HIV. One could criticize the HN community for that kind of bikeshedding, but it's more pragmatic to just use a boring, contrived example to sell the point. Certainly, a HN thread won't end up filled with a side discussion about office restroom design.

But we can still make poop jokes, right?

Re:Right versus pragmatic by negw on Saturday February 25, 2012 @08:58PM (#3634521)
What's funny is that the second comment down here is about office restroom design :-)
Re:Right versus pragmatic by ThaddeusQuay2 on Sunday February 26, 2012 @01:54PM (#3636373)
"Certainly, a HN thread won't end up filled with a side discussion about office restroom design."

I like those really tall faucets, the ones used by surgeons when they scrub in. I want one in my office restroom, so that I can easily wash up to my elbows after a messy coding session, and I don't care to listen to the moralists who tell me that those faucets are only for surgeons.