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Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 15, 2023 @04:46AM (#36337892)
I wonder if we had implemented a Marshall Plan, together with Europe, for the former Soviet Union, namely Russia, would it have (a) been accepted and (b) worked?

The asset stripping and oligarchisarion we permitted in the early 90s isn’t quite the stuff of the Treaty of Versailles. But it certainly rhymes in that a vanquished power laid prostrate was left to the vultures.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by jemmyw on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:22AM (#36338107)
I agree in principal but it might not have happened in practice. The West gets a lot of blame for what happened in Russia in the 90s, and it's not unfair that it should get some of that blame. However, the plan wasn't that Russian companies and resource rights were sold at a knock off price to Russian oligarchs. The idea was that on the open market they would have been worth an enormous amount and that Russians would have benefited from both the injection of cash and the follow up investment to modernise their industry.

Of course, pretty easy for those in power in Russia to make a big deal to people there about their industry being bought by foreign powers, to make that unattractive or even illegal, and to then snap it all up for next to nothing. The West should have foreseen this and had an alternative plan, more like local partnerships or whatever.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:30AM (#36338154)
> plan wasn't that Russian companies and resource rights were sold at a knock off price to Russian oligarchs

In the first century B.C.E., Julius Caesar implemented a series of redistributionist land reforms [1]. One component was a minimum-hold period to prevent the aristocrats from just going and buying it all back up again.

The re-concentration was absolutely foreseeable. Classical history is no longer fashionable in America elite education, so I get how this was overlooked by the bankers. But it points to a lack of a give-a-shit-factor which, in my agreement with you, does not confer responsibility, but does represent a massive missed opportunity.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Triumvirate#Caesar’s_c... search Lex agraria

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by nsonha on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:23AM (#36353227)
if classical history is required to be able to foresee such a thing, then maybe people've lost their common sense.
Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by OwlsParlay on Thursday June 15, 2023 @04:50AM (#36337912)
Why would the US want to do a Marshall plan? It was in full asset stripping mode in the USA itself in the mid 90s
Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by marginalia_nu on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:08AM (#36338010)
To avoid, well, this.

In general I think the west tends to underestimate how frail a young democracy is.

Western-style Democracy isn't something that spontaneously happens when a despot is removed. It takes a long-ass time for the institutions to establish legitimacy, and when installed in an environment when there's large inequalities from the get-go, things may change, but they will also stay the same.

Manufacturing prosperity through something like the Marshall plan is one way to actually let things settle in the right way.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by fransje26 on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:43AM (#36338239)
Why worry about a problem that might happen 30 years down the line when you can make an outrageous amount of money today.. Heck, why worry about a problem that can happen next year if you can can make a good profit right now..

As the climate crisis shows, we are perpetually and knowingly heading for the proverbial brick wall full steam ahead in the name of a quick buck.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by marginalia_nu on Thursday June 15, 2023 @07:00AM (#36338728)
I don't know if it's true but I've seen it argued that shortsightedness of western capitalism was kept in check by the five year planning of the eastern bloc, and when the wall fell, that check was essentially removed and most of our problems today is a result of that.

As I said, I don't know if it's true, but it's certainly an interesting notion. Maybe it's true at least in the sense that during the cold war, the west couldn't really afford to rest on its laurels. Even the most dysfunctional market had to be compelled to beat the Soviet null hypothesis as a matter of survival for the way of life.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:07AM (#36338008)
> Why would the US want to do a Marshall plan?

Same reason we did in 1948: to preserve and strengthen a hard-won peace.

> was in full asset stripping mode in the USA itself in the mid 90s

I’ve never seen someone tie FDR’s New Deal to the Marshall Plan. Curious if there’s a substantiated link.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by guerilla_prgrmr on Thursday June 15, 2023 @06:04AM (#36338367)
Fully agree.

The other factor, aside from greed, that caused the asset stripping madness was the worry that the socialists would retake power in Russia as they had a significant presence in parliament. I’ve heard that part of the need for speed (and lack of longterm plan) was the perception that Russia needed to see off that threat ASAP.

But came next was much worse.

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by sam_lowry_ on Thursday June 15, 2023 @09:42AM (#36340367)
> socialists

Communists. But you are right, every opposition leader in Russia cries wolf how they should not have supported Yeltsin rigging elections and how it all went astray since then

Re:How Russia Went from Ally to Adversary by credit_guy on Thursday June 15, 2023 @07:36AM (#36339015)
The Marshall Plan started in 1948. Germany was under US occupation until 1952. Which means any embezzlement of funds could be prosecuted directly by the occupiers.

Try to send a few billion in Russia. How much do you expect to be stolen?