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Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by 0xB31B1B on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:13PM (#36332744)
Library wifi is not a homeless service. An 24 hour open seat on a subway is not a homeless service. Parks where children play is not a homeless service. Public goods being overtaken by an antisocial drug users in the name of homeless support is not progressive.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by notaustinpowers on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:22PM (#36332897)
I hope you never become homeless.

I was, for 4 weeks, and my local libraries wifi is what helped me stay in touch with my parents when my phone data was shut off for nonpayment. It helped me secure a job back at home.

You need to rethink your idea of what homelessness is. It's not antisocial drug users. It's also LGBT kids thrown out of their home. It's families being evicted because the parents lost their job. Even if they were antisocial drug users, sympathy, support, and assistance do more help than turning a blind eye and hoping they go away.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by iancmceachern on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:24PM (#36332921)
Same boat, there was a time for me when if it wasn't for a library computer I could use for free, I wouldn't have been able to get a job
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:25PM (#36332946)
> It's also LGBT kids thrown out of their home. It's families being evicted because the parents lost their job.

Is there real political backlash against the transient homeless population?

The problem is the library wants to kick out an inconvenient, occasionally dangerous, group of the chronically homeless. A group that reduces utility of that public good to everyone else. They don’t have the tools to do so directly. So they use a broad-brush approach.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by panda888888 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:00PM (#36333380)
As I said in a different comment to another user, compassion fatigue is real. Maybe this makes me cold-hearted, but where I live, sympathy, support, and assistance enable these people to voluntarily continue their lifestyle. 90+% of the homeless people I encounter are addicted to drugs and/or have a significant, untreated mental illness, to the point where they'd prefer to stay on the street as opposed to working. These people don't use the library to look for jobs, they use the library to sell stolen shit on craigslist in order to fund their drug use.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by 0xB31B1B on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:13PM (#36333512)
Correct, ~75% of homeless people are "invisibly homeless", don't have drug use issues, aren't criminals, take showers and don't practice antisocial behaviors. The problem is that the 25% of homeless who are drug addicts and are extremely anti social completely destroy the system for everyone else. We don't have a good vocabulary for this. The issue is that the street campers at the library were meth heads who shit in the street, screamed at each other in the middle of the night, and caused a huge amount of disruption for the people who live near the library (I live 1 block away from here). We need to have far less tolerance for anti social behaviors in SF, including within permanently supportive housing and nightly shelters. The other issue is that when you spend a ton of money to support the invisibly homeless folks, and tolerate the anti social chronically homeless, you create a giant magnet that pulls in drug users and anti social homeless from the nearby communities and state and you become the dumping ground for everyone's chronically homeless. It is not my problem as a resident of SF to pay for the permanent supportive housing of a chronically homeless meth head from Humbolt county who moved here for a 700 dollar monthly check, reliable street sleeping, passive police force, and steady supply of drugs.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:24PM (#36333631)
The problematically chronic homeless also make shelters un-inviting, occasionally un-safe, for the transient homeless.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by cagey on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:50PM (#36333938)
> my local libraries wifi is what helped me stay in touch with my parents when my phone data was shut off for nonpayment.

After today seeing 4 (customer-less) kiosks scattered across my medium-sized AZ town attempting to give away free cell phones, free tablets, and free cell service (presumably to those who qualify on the basis of need, presumably funded by the Federal Government), and then returning home and reading this thread in which it is frequently claimed that open WiFi is providing more or less the last comm link between homeless people (who evidently have phones but not cell service?) and the wider world and the possibilities it might offer, I find myself wondering "[why] don't the homeless qualify for these free [cell phones and] cell services?" Is this simply an oversight by Federal legislators (i.e. requiring a recipient to have a fixed mailing address (or: documentable proof of poverty?)) If so, why is nobody mentioning a need to agitate to remove the legal requirements preventing those most needing this help to be eligible to receive it? Simply providing free (voice & data providing) SIMs (which the Federal Govt already seems to be willing to provide) to homeless persons should obviate this entire sub-issue? Or would this (essentially handing out SIM's to anyone who asks for one) risk destabilizing the entire for-pay cell-service industry sector?

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by williamvds on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:20PM (#36332855)
Libraries are a public service, and free WiFi is often provided along with that service.

In this case that service is being deliberately sabotaged for one of the most vulnerable groups in society.

Internet access is so necessary in modern life that it should be considered a citizen or human right.

Even if you subscribe to the ideology of the homeless being lazy leeches, the counter-effectiveness is quite obvious. Homeless people could be using the WiFi to access online banking, job, and housing applications. Things that would help get them off the street.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by stickfigure on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:24PM (#36332920)
They aren't refusing WiFi to homeless people. They're shutting it off at night because it encourages people to sleep there. Homeless people are still welcome to come in (or nearby) to use WiFi during normal hours.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by nvahalik on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:28PM (#36332973)
> Libraries are a public service

They are paid for by taxpayers. If the people funding the projects are unable to use them or they are being abused, then it makes sense to ensure that those that pay for the service are able to use them.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by sangnoir on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:23PM (#36332908)
> Library wifi is not a homeless service.

Correct, it's a service for everyone - including the homeless. A world where library doors are closed to some people is a world that has lost its way.

Do homeless people have the same rights as everyone else? Granted, they may not readily afford lawyers, but some of the restrictions you're implying trample in the freedom of movement.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by 0xB31B1B on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @08:12PM (#36334723)
we're far far beyond "trampling on freedom of movement" in SF. We need to enforce basic laws and pro social behaviors like "don't poop on the street", "dont smoke meth within 500 feet of an elementary school", "don't leave a giant pile of poop encrusted needles on the sidewalk".
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by politelemon on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:32PM (#36333037)
It boggles my mind to see a comment like this, it is fundamentally based on the assumption that homeless people are subhuman and not deserving of amenities. Further it's looking at the purpose and situation in life as a qualification of usage. A homeless person walking into a library to use it, is now a library patron, would they still be excluded due to them being homeless? If I am upset one day and decide to take a long meaningless ride on a subway circuit, am I more or less allowed to do it compared to a homeless person? Of course these examples can be nitpicked and yet will miss the point. These simply become soundbites that justify cruelty.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by scarmig on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:52PM (#36333277)
Everyone should have access to public amenities. But a widespread homelessness problem ends up denying amenities to people who aren't homeless: when libraries regularly have people smoking meth or shooting up in the bathrooms, that makes it uncomfortable for most people to use. It's easy enough to say "they should just get over it, someone passed out on the bathroom floor is not really a threat to anyone," but that betrays a certain level of privilege that ignores the feelings of most people and the genuine lack of safety and cleanliness that homelessness introduces to those spaces.

In your hypothetical example, if you were inebriated, aggressive, and unhygienic, I'd strongly support you being removed from the subway circuit, because you'd similarly be denying access to it to others.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by im3w1l on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:25PM (#36333653)
Being homeless isn't the same as making others uncomfortable. The correlation is high, yes, but it's important to distinguish nevertheless. Only by distinguishing can you incentivize good behavior.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by scarmig on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:40PM (#36333824)
Although that is of course true, it's unclear how you translate that into policy. The ideal would be for the city to remove badly behaving people (regardless of homeless status) from public spaces and allow the well-behaved people to go and remain there. In practice, however, the city is unable to make that distinction, and a badly behaving person will, even if removed, return, resulting in the denial of access to the general public.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by 0xB31B1B on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:28PM (#36333687)
Thats great, the library in question has to call the police multiple times per week for various issues caused by the meth addiction homeless who occupy it. It has completely ruined the concept of library for everyone who isn’t a drug user.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by pfffr on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:24PM (#36332924)
Libraries are public services. Subways are public services. Parks are public spaces. If you are so progressive you would be interested in expanding social service spending to help people out of homelessness. This would solve your (personal) problem with homelessness.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by scarmig on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:46PM (#36333206)
San Francisco already spends half a billion dollars per year on homeless services, which comes to 50k-75k per homeless individual per year. Is there reason to believe that more spending would actually fix homelessness, when most other cities spend less and have less of a homeless problem?
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:21PM (#36332881)
Library Wi-Fi is supposed to be a service for everybody, unless I am missing something.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by politelemon on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:33PM (#36333050)
Don't think you're missing anything, libraries exist to help connect communities. They are a public service. You pay for it.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by iancmceachern on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:23PM (#36332902)
But they should be, because the need is clearly there, and not being met
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by dijit on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:18PM (#36332815)
The cost to run the service though is as close to zero as you can possibly get.

It just feels somewhat inhumane to take something away which is a marginal cost and at best and doesn't cause harm.

I mean, Libraries themselves do not need to exist, they are a service, they don't earn money, under pure capitalism they can't exist. But we know as a society that it improves social mobility and education.

and I mean, you can't do a lot these days without access to internet.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by meetingthrower on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:24PM (#36332911)
Right, but bedding down outside the library at night so you can get free wifi is antisocial behavior. Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away? I wouldnt want somebody sleeping next to my house so he could get WiFi. Public spaces are ours.

Don't get me wrong. I think we should make massive investments in trying to solve the homeless problem, but giving away our public commons is utter stupidity.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by gumby on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:28PM (#36332978)
> Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away? I wouldnt want somebody sleeping next to my house so he could get WiFi. Public spaces are ours.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:29PM (#36333008)
The law in practice doesn’t prohibit it. You’re seeing a debate about whether it should, a debate to which this quip adds nothing.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by gumby on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @07:07PM (#36334127)
It directly addresses my excerpt of the comment I responded to. The author asked why access to public space should be "given away" and then wrote "public spaces are ours" (emphasis mine).

The cleverness of Anatole France's famous quote is that he framed it in a way that the answers to those questions were automatically obvious, by emphasizing the massive difference in agency and scope of action between the haves and the have nots.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by 0xB31B1B on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @08:15PM (#36334742)
There were a few hundred shelter beds available last night in SF to anyone who wanted to sleep indoors. The problem is the people who sleep outside the library don't want to sleep in shelter, because the shelters don't allow drug use. The people sleeping outside the library want to get high and we do not have an effective means to compel people into shelter or treatment.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by dijit on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:21AM (#36338095)
There can be many reasons that homeless people avoid shelters, it's not entirely fair to say that it's only one reason.

I grew up in a very bad place in the UK and I knew many homeless people (different than homeless people in the US for sure, much lower propensity for mental health issues for example) but they avoided shelters because many homeless shelters aren’t safe. Any possessions you have will be stolen while you sleep. Women are molested and raped. Lice are all over. There are limited beds so giving up your "sure-fire" place in an underpass for a potential bed is not ideal.

You have to leave at 7 am and can’t return until 5pm at the earliest, and they’re first come first serve. Some shelters make you attend religious services.

Some shelters will "encourage" you to pay a fee to go to them.

It's very easy to become homeless and very difficult to get out of it (I mean, who has the finances to have 2 months rent, a deposit and enough to cover a failed background check), so it's not good to tar all homeless people with the "drug-use" brush.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:27PM (#36332966)
> Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away

I think you mean give them away exclusively to one group. The point of public services is to give them away.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by throwawaymaths on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:21PM (#36332867)
Why not provide wifi for the homeless as a service, with its own line item, instead of doing it via the Library?
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by sangnoir on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:29PM (#36333001)
Why segregate an existing service that's already meant for everyone? Would we need another wifi network for Veterans and yet another for retirees?
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:31PM (#36333027)
> Why segregate a service that's already meant for everyone?

Because one group denies it to others. In New York, the potent image is that of a homeless person obviously going through a mental health issue, who hasn’t bathed in what smells like weeks, sitting in a subway car on their own. (When I was younger and naïve, I went into one such car and tried to talk to them. I had a handful of what I’ll pretend was a smelly sauce tossed my way.)

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by sangnoir on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:34PM (#36333062)
How about shoring up the social safety net like other developed countries? The length at which Americans go to ignore the homeless (until they are in close physical proximity) is astounding. And most "solutions" are to keep the homeless out of sight without doing anything about their circumstances.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:35PM (#36333078)
> How about shoring up the social safety net like other developed countries?

Genuinely curious: how is the mental-health and drug addiction nexus dealt with when one has an unwilling participant?

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by sangnoir on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:49PM (#36333242)
Participate in what exactly? You won't find many takers if the intervention is automatic institutionalization. There are a lot of areas the US has not explored between commiting people to mental asylums and letting them roam the streets.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:53PM (#36333284)
> Participate in what exactly?

I don't know–I'm asking what "other developed countries" do.

Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by 0xB31B1B on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @08:22PM (#36334808)
San Francisco, where this article is about, is spending more than 75k USD per homeless person per year on homeless services. The issues is not a lack of compassion of city residents or the collective residents of the city shouting "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" to anyone in a precarious position. We have been increasing taxes and spending every year as long as I have been here to help "fix the homeless problem" and it keeps getting worse. At the limit, I would prefer we spend our marginal incoming tax dollar on education and schooling for the children of the city, not on non sober permanent housing for out of town meth heads who just want to get high. Doubling down in this issue, you have a huge portion of the non chronically homeless people who are just on tough times who completely avoid the homeless services in the city because of the legitimate issue that a single insane violent drug addict can have on on an entire homeless shelter or an entire 500 unit permanent supportive housing building. SF housed a few hundred people in the pandemic in an old 300 unit hotel and a few of the residents caused 20 million dollars in damage.
Re:San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep h... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:23PM (#36332900)
This is a better idea. New York does it on the street. (I would advocate high-speed internet at and around all shelters, if that isn’t the case already.)

The problem with the status quo is it’s going to prompt a backlash which results in losing libraries.