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Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by maerF0x0 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:00AM (#36227654)
To realize that the real state acts "deep state" like without requiring nefarious or shadowy behavior.

Simply make unelected people have lifelong careers within governmental organizations. Snowden talks about this in his book. Yeah a new ~puppet~ figure head gets elected every 4 years. But what about all the layers of folks who actually perform the "Government" actions? They are the same people for decades, they say yes or no to actions you can/cannot take, they influence in their every choice they true meaning of policies...

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by roywiggins on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:22AM (#36227984)
The modern civil service is still better than the old "spoils system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system

It was reformed for a reason! Putting politicians in charge of all hiring and firing turned out to be bad for everyone.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by sl0tr4cer on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:32PM (#36230133)
and having public sector unions is likewise bad for everyone
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by Dah00n on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:22PM (#36231089)
How's unions bad? Outside US-style Mafia unions of course. Nordic country unions are not at all the same and I see those as 100% win.
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by HDThoreaun on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @04:14PM (#36232881)
The leader of my citys police union is a convicted domestic abuser, was in a relationship with a student at the high school he was paid to protect, is a proud qanoner, and was fired by the city 3 times. Every time he was fired the union appealed and he kept his job. He has won multiple elections since the allegations came to light. The problem with public sector unions is that our last mayoral election was cop union sponsored candidate versus teacher union sponsored candidate. Literally both the candidates were lawyers for the unions directly before they started the campaign. If you think either group has a sweetheart contract you are shit out of luck, because the unions completely control politics here.

Unions work when the group they are bargaining with has competing interests. When the union negotiates against itself everyone else suffers.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by digging on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @05:48PM (#36234086)
None of those serious issues are intrinsic problems with public sector unions, though. Most of them would exist even without the union playing a role, and a well structured union could also be preventing them.
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by HDThoreaun on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @06:37PM (#36234636)
Cops not being able to be fired is 100% because of the union. Every time they negotiate a new contract and the city tries to put in the ability to fire people the police refuse to arrest anyone.
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by digging on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @09:43PM (#36236116)
Well, we don't need to get into details, but most pro-union folks I know don't consider police unions to be workers' unions. Either way, as I said, it's not an intrinsic property of unions. It's that way because police unions exist to hold the public hostage, not because unions are bad.
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by HDThoreaun on Thursday June 08, 2023 @11:31AM (#36243590)
Holding the public hostage is an intrinsic property of public sector unions. That's the leverage they hold. If they don't like the deal being offered they can stop working and because their roles are so important that holds the public hostage.
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by digging on Thursday June 08, 2023 @01:03PM (#36245144)
That's how strikes work in general, whether the job is public or private. Transportation is mostly privatized, but if the workers strike we're all going to feel it to some degree. That's the point.

The difference with police unions is that they work in the inverse - we're in danger when they do work. Police hold us hostage by doing their jobs (badly) and offer mob-like protection.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by Dah00n on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:22AM (#36358142)
But what is the alternative?

I'll also just that I see the police union as a perfect example of what I called a US mafia style union. In Nordic countries you can't behave like this and get away with it in a union and there are pretty strict rules for what is and what isn't a legal strike.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by lilsoso on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:57PM (#36229590)
This is a satirical point of the British TV show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister. The high ranking civil servants, with nearly permanent positions, are in charge. The elected officials think they are in charge.
Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by B1FF_PSUVM on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:27PM (#36232175)
> The elected officials think they are in charge

Nah, the smart ones know they're not. They're just keeping up appearances.

Somewhat like those stories about being chased by wolves through the snow. Once in a while one who got ideas is tossed out as a distraction (Liz Truss, anyone?).

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by shadowgovt on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:00PM (#36229630)
This is working as intended. At least in the United States.

Early in the history of the country, we experimented with evicting the entire government when party changed hands, all the way to individual post offices. It turned out to be ridiculously inefficient. It turns out institutional knowledge is extremely important, and institutions are generally terrible at writing everything down that the next person will need. Imagine trying to conduct a business with 95% turnover every 2 years.

As a result, we intentionally established standards for employment and safeguards against arbitrary firing of unelected bureaucratic officials. The elected officials have control over setting policy and, in the long-term, deciding the criteria by which the unelected officials retain their jobs.

None of this implies that the unelected officials are unaccountable. They are held accountable by our elected officials. But that process does require the elected officials to do their homework and, to some extent, understand the Chesterton's fences that exist in the system. A failure mode I observe is that we seem to keep trying to solve the problem by electing conspiracy nuts who are then basically ignored because they try to approach the problem of raining in unelected bureaucracy from the "Why don't you show us the secret UFO tapes?" direction instead of the "The president needs a full accounting of how many terabytes of data have been stored for terrorism fighting purposes" direction.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by nunobrito on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:51PM (#36231618)
UFOs are not conspiracy: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/whistleblower-...

It was quite a hard path over decades to finally admit a reality that was obvious since decades. That realization has far more impact to mankind than petty politics.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by shadowgovt on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @04:23PM (#36233004)
Noise like this is why the NSA doesn't get held accountable for spying on Americans.

Who has time to worry about privacy breaches and mass surveillance when aliens are real?

It would be harder to imagine an easier psyop to pull off. The only thing that strains credibility is that apparently it works.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by nunobrito on Friday June 09, 2023 @06:09PM (#36264891)
You're the one mentioning aliens. The topic are UFOs and those are very much a reality. Governments spying on citizens is far from novelty.

On the other side, it is novelty to force western governments admitting that some flying object is surpassing our own technology capacities. That is a window opportunity into open science, into discovering what is powering them.

It is OK that your interests are more aligned into holding someone accountable, many other people on this globe are more interested in other topics. That's basically it.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by shadowgovt on Saturday June 10, 2023 @02:01PM (#36272996)
> You're the one mentioning aliens

Yes, as the kind of foolishness the people who should be holding government accountable are distracted by instead of doing their jobs.

> It is OK that your interests are more aligned into holding someone accountable, many other people on this globe are more interested in other topics.

Indeed. It is a very useful lack of focus that maintains the status quo.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by maerF0x0 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:55PM (#36232584)
> It turns out institutional knowledge is extremely important

It's a feature when positive, and a bug/liability when the institution is criminal/rogue . The NSA/CIA/FBI have (presumably knowingly) broke the law and using shady techniques. Which is of no surprise -- it's in their DNA to be secretive, shady, and create and exploit loopholes.

Re:10 years after Snowden's first leak, what have we learned? by pyuser583 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @06:00PM (#36234226)
The creation of the civil service in the US wasn’t about efficiency, but corruption.

James Garfield’s assassination was over his refusal to give a patronage job. That lead to a backlash against patronage in general.

Jobs as patronage continued at the lower level for a long time. In many states, the most powerful political official was the Postmaster General because he controlled the jobs.

At the federal level it still continues in various forms: appointments to military academies require congressional sponsorship, Supreme Court justices hand out clerkships based on ideology, etc.

When people talk about the civil services reforms being inspired by efficiency, they usually are talking about the British civil service (Northcoat-Trevelian report) or Chinese civil service.

But those are very different things than the American civil service.

America never really had a civilian civil service in the “Yes, Minister” sense of the phrase.