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Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by nindalf on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:20AM (#36083724)
It’s ok to praise FDR for the New Deal and also recognise that sending all Japanese people (and not German or Italian people) to internment camps was a bigoted, evil thing to do.

What do you want? For us to say “ah well, that’s just how it was back in the day”? You’re the one incapable of nuance if you want to put everything FDR did into one bucket or the other.

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by slibhb on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:25AM (#36083786)
People can praise or criticize FDR for whatever they like. I'm objecting to the name-calling, not the idea that the internment of Japanese Americans was wrong.
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by BaseballPhysics on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:29AM (#36083842)
Why? Are your sensibilities so delicate that calling a spade a spade is offensive to you?
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by slibhb on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:40AM (#36083986)
No, the idea that almost everyone born before 1980 was an evil bigot is stupid
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by BaseballPhysics on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:43AM (#36084013)
Then it's a good thing no one said that.

You should probably take a break from the internet. There's enough things to get offended about. There's really no reason to start making up new ones.

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by slibhb on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:02AM (#36084278)
If you extend your "calling a spade a spade" logic, it will to lead to some ridiculous premise like "everyone born before x year was an evil bigot" where x keeps marching forward year after year.
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by jjulius on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:03AM (#36084295)
Where did OP call "everyone born before 1980 ... an evil bigot"? Where did OP single out FDR as a reactionary bigot? Yes, it was done under his watch, but there were, in point of fact, plenty of genuinely reactionary bigots who supported it at the time. You're lambasting OP for the words you've put into their mouth. Stop.
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by nindalf on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:49AM (#36084934)
Not everyone. Just the guy who ordered Japanese Americans be sent to internment camps.
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by jakelazaroff on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:02AM (#36084288)
Would you not describe the internment of Japanese Americans as reactionary or as bigotry? Which label do you actually disagree with? OP wasn't just mindlessly adding invectives; they used those words for a reason.
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by dQw4w9WgXcQ on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:49AM (#36084099)
You know what's also bigoted and evil? Kamikazi-ing planes into ships + bombing Pearl Harbor.

Japan probably should have thought about possible consequences before doing that.

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by tech_ken on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:41AM (#36084805)
Setting aside the historical veracity of this nonsense, are you suggesting that it was appropriate for US citizens to pay the price of that decision because of their ancestry? What is wrong with you?
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by endisneigh on Friday May 26, 2023 @09:53AM (#36084137)
if you know what a kamikazi is, then you know the ones who did that were not the ones sent to the camps. could you say anything more stupid? lol
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by mc32 on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:05AM (#36084330)
I would say Bataan and PoW camps in SEAsia as well as treatment of mainland Chinese, Korean laborers, etc., are "better" examples of Japanese bigotry and cruelty --at the time. Japan has come a long way since then.

1 in 3 PoWs in Japanese labor camps would die during WWII: https://www.historyonthenet.com/world-war-two-japanese-pow-c...

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by krapp on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:01AM (#36084269)
> You know what's also bigoted and evil? Kamikazi-ing planes into Pearl Harbor.

Yeah, that didn't happen. Japan didn't start using kamikaze attacks until the end of the war, as an act of desperation. It wasn't just, like, a thing they did.

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by mc32 on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:14AM (#36084445)
Japanese, Italians and Germans were declared Enemy Aliens: https://www.thc.texas.gov/preserve/projects-and-programs/mil...
Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by George83728 on Friday May 26, 2023 @10:43AM (#36084838)
I believe that the only reason most German-Americans were not interned is because they were too large a portion of the population to intern without seriously negatively effecting the war effort.

My evidence for this belief is the fact that Japanese-Americans represented a third of people living in Hawaii, more than 150k of them, yet in Hawaii only ~1800 Japanese-Americans were interned. About 1%. This, despite the fact that Hawaii was closer to the war than the rest of America, and despite the fact that the Niihau incident occurred in Hawaii. Interning a third of the population of Hawaii simply wasn't practical, so in Hawaii they had to exercise much more discretion.

Furthermore, some people believe that Executive Order 8802, which forbade ethnic and racial discrimination in defense industries, was intended more to prevent discrimination against German-Americans and Italian-Americans than against African-Americans. Supposing that is true, it evidences the perception of FDR's administration that discrimination against German-Americans, despite their skin color, was a plausible scenario and would harm the war effort if permitted.

Further evidence for the plausibility of ethnic discrimination against Germans, despite their skin color, is easy to find during WWI. Across America and the UK, German families (including the Royal Family..) changed their names to conceal their German origins. Schools stop teaching German, businesses were renamed, sauerkraut became "liberty cabbage" (freedom fries, anyone?) The Red Cross even forbade people with German last names from joining.

tl;dr: The federal government recognized the potential appetite for discrimination against German-Americans, but forbade this because German-Americans were a very large portion of the population and excluding them would harm the war effort. At the same time the federal government perpetrated discrimination against Japanese-Americans, except they exercised more discretion in Hawaii where Japanese-Americans were a very large segment of the population.

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by justin66 on Friday May 26, 2023 @11:43AM (#36085636)
> Interning a third of the population of Hawaii simply wasn't practical

> At the same time the federal government perpetrated discrimination against Japanese-Americans, except they exercised more discretion in Hawaii where Japanese-Americans were a very large segment of the population.

Hawaii, not a US state at the time, was largely occupied by the US military prior to Pearl Harbor. After Pearl Harbor its residents were subject to martial law and their civil rights were suspended. The situation there was not analogous to the situation on the mainland, so I wouldn't use it to draw any conclusions.

> the only reason

Your thesis isn't wildly off-base, but how often is anything done by humans done for one single, solitary reason?

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by George83728 on Friday May 26, 2023 @01:28PM (#36087195)
> Hawaii, not a US state at the time, was largely occupied by the US military prior to Pearl Harbor. After Pearl Harbor its residents were subject to martial law and their civil rights were suspended. The situation there was not analogous to the situation on the mainland, so I wouldn't use it to draw any conclusions.

This isn't the reason relatively few Japanese-Americans were interned in Hawaii. Compare it to Alaska. Like Hawaii, Alaska was an incorporated US territory. Japanese-Americans were ordered out of Alaska or interned.

The reason general internment didn't happen in Hawaii is because:

> "The powerful businessmen of Hawaii concluded that the imprisonment of such a large proportion of the islands' population would adversely affect the economic prosperity of the territory.[74] The Japanese represented "over 90 percent of the carpenters, nearly all of the transportation workers, and a significant portion of the agricultural laborers" on the islands.[74] General Delos Carleton Emmons, the military governor of Hawaii, also argued that Japanese labor was "'absolutely essential' for rebuilding the defenses destroyed at Pearl Harbor."[74] Recognizing the Japanese-American community's contribution to the affluence of the Hawaiian economy, General Emmons fought against the incarceration of the Japanese Americans and had the support of most of the businessmen of Hawaii.[74]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America...

Japanese-Americans were a third of Hawaii's population, so interning them all would have been a disaster for Hawaii's economy and harmful to the war effort. That's why it didn't happen in Hawaii. German-Americans, unlike Japanese Americans, were a very large portion of the population in all states and territories, not just Hawaii. The needs of economy and war obviously wouldn't tolerate the internment of all German-Americans, so it didn't happen.

If you think general internment of German-Americans would have been implausible regardless of population size, because the Germans were white, you need to remember that perception of race has never been a rational matter. During WWI, Germans were racially 'othered' in the UK and US by assertions off Germans being "asiatic Huns" and similar nonsense. Nevermind that you couldn't visually distinguish an average German from an average Anglo, racial othering is obviously not bound to rationality. This inclination to racially other the enemy is only tempered by substantial ethnic overlap between the two warring parties. Where there is substantial ethnic overlaps, discrimination will be officially discouraged and resisted because it impairs the war effort (e.g. Executive Order 8802). Where there is little ethnic overlap, racial or ethnic discrimination often become convenient to the government and becomes officially sanctioned.

Re:George Takei recalls his childhood in an internment camp by justin66 on Friday May 26, 2023 @02:45PM (#36088109)
> This isn't the reason relatively few Japanese-Americans were interned in Hawaii. Compare it to Alaska. Like Hawaii, Alaska was an incorporated US territory. Japanese-Americans were ordered out of Alaska or interned.

What I was driving at, which sort of complements what you quoted, is: what would have been the rationale of sending all those Hawaiian Japanese-Americans to an internment camp in the midwest to be watched over by military police when they were in Hawaii, under martial law, being watched over by military police?

General Delos Carleton Emmons, the military governor of Hawaii, also argued that Japanese labor was "'absolutely essential' for rebuilding the defenses destroyed at Pearl Harbor."[74] Recognizing the Japanese-American community's contribution to the affluence of the Hawaiian economy, General Emmons fought against the incarceration of the Japanese Americans and had the support of most of the businessmen of Hawaii.

The interesting thing is, in a 100% wartime economy with full employment, depriving the economy of the labor of all those other Japanese-Americans in the continental United States was hurting the war effort as well. Not as acutely as tearing a big chunk out of the Hawaiian economy would, but still, not very rational.

> If you think general internment of German-Americans would have been implausible regardless of population size, because the Germans were white, you need to remember that perception of race has never been a rational matter.

I think internment of German-Americans would have been less likely, not implausible or impossible. The differences of Japanese-Americans in terms of dissimilar appearance and less shared culture would have greased the skids of racism, as it were. And yes, it's fair enough to point out that it doesn't always work that way and sometimes really, really similar groups engage in ethnic othering.