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Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by nine_k on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:10AM (#36000851)
Hello, post-truth world!

More seriously, I think that digital photos, and especially low-res surveillance camera coverage, will soon be inadmissible in any reasonable court, because tools like this would allow to forge such evidence in very natural-looking ways.

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by politelemon on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:17AM (#36002283)
Seeing how slowly laws move, the cynic says it's: should be inadmissible in any reasonable court, but will continue to be admissible, and will take a major set of incidents for changes to be enacted across many countries.
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by nine_k on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:13PM (#36005747)
Yes. The story if admissable DNA evidence is instructive and terrifying.

https://daily.jstor.org/forensic-dna-evidence-can-lead-wrong...

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by imranq on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:45AM (#36003283)
There are probably ways to embed cryptographic hashes within images. Any device that creates images from the real world could have secret keys that can be used to validate any image created by said device.

We will still need a centralized party that holds the secret keys for validation through

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by ChainReaktion on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:39PM (#36003916)
This is the right approach, but there’s lots of complexity around transcoding. In the courtroom that’s less of an issue if you can get the original unmodified outputs, but broader applications need to think through what it means to be “verified”
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by bick_nyers on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:20PM (#36003680)
What about the recording device itself? Refeed a video/frame/hash back to a security camera and it tells you if it was originally sourced from that specific camera or not.
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by foota on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:42PM (#36005999)
The sci-fi dystopian answer would be entangled photon lights and off site image recording that preserves entanglement :-)
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by nine_k on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:06PM (#36005682)
What shall we do with millions upon millions of existing mobile phones, and also surveillance cameras and dashcams?

Some of them possibly could be updated, but this will take time. Securing the keys within them is also going to be a problem; not all of them have a TPM.

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by vhcr on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:16PM (#36006954)
There's no way this would work, either the master encryption key would be leaked, or someone would reverse-engineer the chip.

Also, what about someone putting a screen just in front of the sensor?

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by nine_k on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:46PM (#36007207)
No need for that.

A private key is generated on device and never leaves it. It sits inside a TPM or equivalent.

The public key is pushed to a well-known site, visible to all.

Every shot is signed by hashing the bits into a reasonably short string (say, using sha512) and then encrypted with the private key.

Anyone can now decrypt the hash, and compare it with the hash they computed from the bits.

The problem, of course, is that any transformation whatsoever breaks the signature. You can't adjust levels and contrast, you can't even crop. Maybe it's a good property.

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by vhcr on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:39PM (#36008333)
Why would you trust the key if it was generated on the device? Anyone could generate a key. You would either need a centralized server to sign that key, in which case you have to trust a centralized company / government agency.
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by smrtinsert on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:10PM (#36007370)
You don't need a centralized database. You have 3 companies 3 different hashes. They catch bob stealing, on 3 different cameras. Each footage can be independently verified as authentic and not doctored. This would prevent anonymous found footage suggesting someone committed a crime.

You definitely don't want one single leakable entity.

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by grumbel on Friday May 19, 2023 @06:00PM (#36007301)
Being able to fake something really doesn't matter all that much, as you'd still need to get that fake video into the surveillance camera system and you need to do so in the time between committing the crime and the police arriving, and without leaving a trace and hoping that whoever you try to incriminate doesn't have an alibi.

Fakes will be relevant for Twitter, TikTok and Co., where random videos are posted and distributed without sources, heavily edited and compressed, such that it is impossible to tell if that video ever started out as a real video or a fake. But in court the whole thing starts to fall apart the moment they ask where that video came from.

Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by tehwebguy on Saturday May 20, 2023 @08:08AM (#36011219)
Without knowing what the current ones are, I'd guess we need improved chain-of-custody laws for evidence immediately!
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by krunck on Monday May 22, 2023 @03:34PM (#36035661)
Ah, but for law enforcement types to say "hey, look what we found on the surveillance video server!" is a potential problem. The power asymmetry in society is ripe for exploitation by the powerful. They just need some goons - of which there are plenty - to do the dirty work.
Re:Interactive Point-Based Manipulation on the Generative Im... by dragonwriter on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:35PM (#36008894)
You have always been able to forge photographic evidence in natural looking ways (most easily by using completely real photography with misrepresented time or context).

And, of course, the easiest to falsify evidence (eyewitness testimony) is still admissible.

That's why you have to provide support for provenance, all of which is subject to examination and counterevidence.