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Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by MichaelZuo on Monday May 15, 2023 @08:54AM (#35947396)
F1 drivers can instinctively respond to a minor bump on a curve and make a decision in probably ~100 milliseconds, so the lower bound is just 10 computational steps.

A more complex decision such as swerving to avoid a wheel that just came off the car in front, probably takes around ~500 milliseconds, or 50 computational steps.

Considering that modern computers need billions of computational steps to start a calculator app and draw it on the desktop, we have a long way to go.

Though there has been regression on this point, a NeXTStation Color could do the same with ~50 millions cycles on a 1120 × 832 12 bit display. (on 12 MB of RAM and 1.5 MB of VRAM.)

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday May 15, 2023 @09:59AM (#35948235)
I think the trick is, our computational steps are massively parallel. Take the visual system. By the time you notice - consciously - the pothole you're about to drive into, it's already processed into high-level concepts.

Our visual senses aren't camera feeds - the image we are aware of isn't raw input from the eyes, but rather it's generated out of some combination of raw inputs, low-level hacks to hide limited FOV and discontinuities caused by saccades, and higher-level interpretations based on how we feel, what seems to fit the context based on our prior experiences, etc.

I think it makes sense to assume that this process has many extra off-ramps that can trigger high-level reactions while bypassing conscious awareness. I.e. imagine that half-way through the post-processing stack, the relevant parts of the brain are somewhat convinced you're looking at a fast-moving object about to hit you in the face. There's a point at which it makes sense for the brain to make your body start a dodging move, even if it may be a misprediction, rather than waste a few dozen milliseconds to make sure, at the risk of getting a ball (or a rock, or a fist) up your nose.

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by marcosdumay on Monday May 15, 2023 @10:45AM (#35949011)
> I think the trick is, our computational steps are massively parallel.

Yes, one trick is that. Our computers have to serialize everything. We don't know how to build or program massively parallel computers with distributed memory. But the GP already touched on that point.

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by MichaelZuo on Monday May 15, 2023 @11:26AM (#35949750)
Well it seems like Nvidia is taking some baby steps in that direction with the 'Grace Hopper Superchip'.
Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by daveguy on Monday May 15, 2023 @12:40PM (#35950973)
This is an extremely important point. "10 computational steps" is obviously underestimated. Each neuron can communicate with 10s to 100s of additional neurons, so if you're talking about 10 ms per step 100ms being 10 steps you are missing the fact that each step can be an exponential increase in the amount of computation involved. This is one of the main reasons I believe we are nowhere near human or even mouse level AGI. Many of the simple neuron count metrics do not include the synapse counts or the incredible amount of parallel information that is processed. We have network interfaces with 100-400 Gb throughput whereas the communications between synapses represents exabits of throughput between computational units. We are very far from AGI just on a fundamental processing scale. Not to mention we know very little about the algorithms involved.
Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday May 15, 2023 @12:49PM (#35951082)
I would almost agree with you on the AGI angle, but my beliefs are still recovering from the shock of how we kind of randomly stumbled into solving multiple classes of seemingly intractable cognitive problems, just by feeding a program half the Internet and letting it position pieces of words in a hundred thousand dimensional vector space.

Human brain has to do a lot of work processing and integrating all the senses we use, which could cover at least for part of the neural capacity you mention, but I feel that where thinking is concerned, we may have accidentally solved the core problems. I somewhat expect that we'll look back and see that current LLMs were to human minds what the ol' Model T is to Tesla Model S - vastly different in levels of advancement, but also fundamentally the same thing.

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by daveguy on Monday May 15, 2023 @01:07PM (#35951314)
> the shock of how we kind of randomly stumbled into solving multiple classes of seemingly intractable cognitive problems...

Another excellent point. The idea that we may stumble onto massive computational leaps based on imprecise data processing requirements is terrifying. I do think we are nowhere near where we will need to be with respect to computation and, more important, information throughput. But the fact that we "oops"-ed into such a strong statistical model of conversation is deeply unsettling. I do believe GPT based language models will be part of an AGI.

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday May 15, 2023 @01:22PM (#35951506)
Part of the reason I think LLMs are a step in the right direction is that it's too big of a coincidence. We don't know how our own brains work, but we have good reasons to believe that, whatever the "magic" trick is, it can't be too complex, because evolution had to "oops" into it too.

Now, it would be one hell of a coincidence if the model we "oops-ed" into with LLMs, and the model evolution "oops-ed" into, were completely unrelated approaches to the same problem.

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by EliRivers on Monday May 15, 2023 @05:50PM (#35954973)
If there are a billion different ways to solve this problem, it would seem much more of a coincidence if with LLMs we've "oops-ed" into an approach just like the one inside our heads. It would seem more likely that they're unrelated approaches.
Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday May 15, 2023 @06:37PM (#35955457)
Right. However, I don't see the reason to believe there is a billion ways to solve the fundamentals. And even if, they're not all equal here: we're considering solutions that are very simple, provide huge leverage, and are continuous.

For our own brains, this is because evolution is the OG incremental learner - it just doesn't do leaps of faith, nor does it invest resources. Incremental evolutionary advancements must quickly stack into something improving survival rates, or else they get selected out of the gene pool. This strongly suggests that brains (human and animal alike) are based on a design that scaled easily and continuously - one that started simple and could be improved step by step, with each step being simple and conferring some non-zero survival advantage.

For our AI work, LLMs are exactly this: they derive from simple models that were iterated on over the past few decades, in small steps. They are still structurally simple as programs - but they've hit the right structure that allowed them to make qualitative jumps in capabilities from simple scaling - more parameters, more memory, more compute, more training time, more input data. This may be just my own perception, but I feel that LLMs are exactly the kind of model that an evolutionary process would be able to develop incrementally.

With the above in mind, plus the fact that LLMs are trained on the output of our brains (and their output is rated by our brains), makes me believe it's highly likely that, with language models, we've stumbled on the very same fundamental method of implementing thinking that is core to how our own brains work.

Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:55AM (#35960561)
These are some very solid points. Thanks for taking the time to write them!
Re:We Don't Know How to Compute (2011) [video] by taeric on Monday May 15, 2023 @01:07PM (#35951301)
That feels like an odd example. Going on a google for speeds, that means they are responding to a bump after they have traveled 30 feet past it. Impressive, to be sure, but I'm not clear what the learning is there. More engineering went into the vehicles so that, by design, many other things happened before the driver is aware of it.