Setting aside the far more malevolent impact of American power, China has no way to use my data to oppress me. The US does, and routinely uses social media data against its own citizens and people abroad.

We’re talking about an instant, direct, and unobservable line into the psyches of tens of millions of American teenagers.

The only reason this is even an argument is deep influence peddling and a staggering complacency towards the real long term motives of the CCP. Which are related.

This kind of fear about large-scale communist subversion was common back in the 1950s too, yet that generation of American kids turned out mostly fine.

With or without several hours a day of Russian controlled media in their bedrooms?

I’m thinking without right?

This reads more like yellow peril hyperbole than reasoned arguments. The CCP is deeply unpopular in the US, and most US institutions are engaged in a demonization campaign against China.

TikTok is horrible and toxic. It should be banned, or at least tightly age-restricted. But I have seen no evidence they're worse than or a bigger threat than other US-based social media empires, and the proponents of those ideas tend to gesture towards vague communist conspiracies rather than point to observable evidence.

The communist conspiracy isn’t vague. It’s the literal stated policy of the leaders of China, backed up by overt military actions and destabilization campaigns.

It’s like not confusing or subtle it’s in plain sight.

It doesn’t really matter if you like to acknowledge it or not, the Chinese government has declared that it will defeat the U.S. and liberal democracy itself in a global conflict.

>It’s the literal stated policy of the leaders of China, backed up by overt military actions and destabilization campaigns.

Source?

If China destabilizes US democracy (more than Russia already has) that can definitely hurt you.

But it's not a competition. Both are bad, both should be resisted. I want TikTok banned AND I want comprehensive laws forbidding Facebook and domestic government from abusing my information.

Neither China nor Russia strike me as the main forces eroding US democracy (or whatever passes for democracy here), and the interference goes both ways. The idea that TikTok could drive the erosion of democratic processes in the US strikes me as silly, especially considering domestic forces like militarization and economic stagnation.

I'm actually all for a TikTok ban as long as we also ban other social media. I think it's all toxic. But the excessive focus on TikTok is just yellow peril/red scare nonsense in pursuit of a new cold war.

>The idea that TikTok could drive the erosion of democratic processes in the US strikes me as silly, especially considering domestic forces like militarization and economic stagnation.

With respect, have you been asleep for the past 7 years? The existence and tangible effects of foreign disinformation and manipulation campaigns are known and well-studied by this point. It's not unique to the US, the tragic situation in Myanmar would likely not have occurred without the existence of Facebook..

> I'm actually all for a TikTok ban as long as we also ban other social media. I think it's all toxic. But the excessive focus on TikTok is just yellow peril/red scare nonsense in pursuit of a new cold war.

I more or less agree here.

>has as a stated goal destroying American power and replacing it with their own anti-democratic power structures.

Source?

The source is endless direct and to the point statements in Chinese by the leaders of China.

If you don’t know before starting the conversation that you’re not really having a serious discussion of US/China relations.

Plenty of sources out there but my favorite is Matt Stoller. If you’re actually curious subscribe to his Twitter and Substack.

>The source is endless direct and to the point statements in Chinese by the leaders of China.

Would you be so kind as to point to a link where such "endless" statements are recorded "direct and to the point"? Primary sources are fine. I don't need translators.

Making egregious claims while providing zero proof whatsoever is a sign that the only thing you are serious about is manufacturing consent.

All due respect here, what exactly do you think China’s geopolitical aims are?

To project nationalist rhetoric externally as the means to maintain domestic political legitimacy, just like what the U.S. is doing.

I am not affiliated with any sort of decision-making body of the Chinese government so what do I know? It's all just speculation.

So, can you kindly provide a source that proves your claims about the Chinese government's stated goals against the U.S.? Just one source, one. It must not be very difficult to retrieve just one source material to back up claims of the existence of this grand death cult campaign propeled by the Chinese government, is it?

I already told you subscribe to Matt Stoller’s substack he’s been documenting it for years.

Here’s a non paywall summary: https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/125187888328203878...

I don’t really care for message board arguments with people who aren’t curious and are trying to score points by restating their not particularly researched position. If you’re intellectually curious about this topic you now have an entry point.

I asked for primary sources, not the distilled excerpts of some rando's Substack grift which I am absolutely not going to pay for.

>people who aren’t curious

I am literally asking for your sources because I am curious how you arrived at those conclusions, yet you refuse to provide them.

>trying to score points by restating their not particularly researched position

Those are some ironic words coming from someone whose best supporting proof to their egregious claim is one single person's paywalled blog as a secondary source. If you are anywhere remotely close to being intellectually curious as you pretend to be, perhaps providing actual sources will be a good start.