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Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by spacebanana7 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:14AM (#35899715)
> This is, largely, the story of monotheist religions. Whether or not they had sacred scrolls in ancient times, the religions were mostly based in folk traditions, temple authority, prophets, judges... people. As the moved from oral tradition to authoritative canon, the religions became extremely stiff an unyielding.

The Catholic Church is interesting counterpoint. Their religious teaching still openly draws upon tradition, institutional church authority and individuals like the Pope.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ethbr0 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @08:22AM (#35901083)
But the body of canon law would have been impractical to standardize and disseminate without the printed word.

See: how many schisms and papal crises there were in medieval times (admittedly, the Catholic Church was also much more a political-nation-religious entity then vs now)

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by spacebanana7 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @08:43AM (#35901241)
I largely agree about the administrative difficulty although I‘d emphasise the written word over the printed word in this context.

Using thousands of monks to copy documents by hand instead of using printers was incredibly resource expensive, but affordable for the Medieval Church.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ethbr0 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @09:06AM (#35901475)
It'd be fascinating to see a conversion to person-hours to copy one book in medieval times.

And I mean fully-loaded, so how much time needed to be spent {farming/military/political administration} to give a monk time to learn to read and write, and then allow them time to copy the book itself.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by brookst on Thursday May 11, 2023 @09:33AM (#35901782)
It's an interesting thought. Challenging because of the fixed costs though. The cost to produce one book would be almost identical to the cost to produce 1000 books; it is the infrastructure more than the marginal resource cost per book.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ethbr0 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @09:37AM (#35901834)
Could see it going either way. Agricultural efficiency (in terms of person_fed : person_farming) in Europe was pretty low. So the dedicated headcount (monks) might dominate the net cost, which would make it scale more linearly with number of books.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by spacebanana7 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @09:59AM (#35902202)
The market price 1 medieval book was roughly the same price for 5 pigs according to this analysis [1]

Price of 7 books = £5 = 100s -> 14s per book / Price of 1 Pig in London = 3s

14 / 5 => roughly 5 pigs per book

Note £1 = 20s

[1] http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ghaff on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:26AM (#35902577)
Paper was also a huge cost--maybe more than the monks' labor depending upon how you want to value their real cost.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ethbr0 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:41PM (#35905536)
Today I learned! Thanks!
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by naravara on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:52AM (#35903027)
I think they viewed the transcription itself as a form of meditative/devotional practice and didn't prioritize efficiency as much. The illumination on some of these manuscripts can get pretty elaborate and, sometimes, kind of whimsical. So they were clearly doing some creative expression while doing it.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by lo_zamoyski on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:08PM (#35905932)
I'm not following. The parent, I believe, was not talking about canon law specifically (which is changing and to be distinguished from doctrine which only undergoes development, but never revision). I also don't understand what papal crises have to do with anything in this context. And what is meant by "political-nation-religious entity"? The Church is a religious institution whose bishops (including the pope) have also exercised distinct secular political authority in addition to religious authority. It was never "national" in character, only supranational (hence, "catholic").
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ethbr0 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:10PM (#35908424)
Parent was observing that the Catholic Church was an exception to GP's point that the written word stiffened and froze monotheistic religious practice, as it blended oral and written transmission.

I was observing that the modern Catholic Church (post-printed word) has offified in exactly that way, with the printed word allow direct dissemination of the "agreed" canon (i.e. pope / hierarchy) to the entire church, thereby unifying them into a single practice.

In counterpoint I offered the number of papal crises and schisms that abounded during the medieval and pre-medieval period (i.e. before printed material became cheap and available).

Ergo, the use of the printed word allowed the Catholic Church to unify and standardize in a way it had not before -- GP's point.

It's indicative that the majority of monotheistic religious splits within Catholicism happened before the printing press, when intervening human parties could reinterprete the canon as it flowed through them.

For political-national-religious entity, the Catholic Church / Holy Roman Empire partnership allowed the Church to become a nation in all but land, by the power its blessing conveyed upon a chosen leader.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law#Catholic_Church

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by dragonwriter on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:28PM (#35908619)
> But the body of canon law would have been impractical to standardize and disseminate without the printed word.

Would it? The Bible, which is much larger, was practical to standardize and disseminate without the printed word, and its not like there was a proximate relationship between the availability of printing (presumably with movable type, in the 15th century) and the codification of canon law in the 20th. The idea that this was waiting on printing is…hard to defend.

> See: how many schisms and papal crises there were in medieval times

The really durable schisms after the 11th Century emerged after or just before (and became crystallized because of) printing, though.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by naravara on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:50AM (#35903001)
> The Catholic Church is interesting counterpoint. Their religious teaching still openly draws upon tradition, institutional church authority and individuals like the Pope.

IIRC this was their main contention against the Protestant reformation. They believed that just pointing at scripture without some practice of custom and tradition to ensure you're properly interpreting it in a sensible way would lead people to folly and extremism/fundamentalism.

Granted it's sort of a pick your poison deal. You either get the fundamentalism of hardline scripturalists or you get the corruption that comes with a hierarchical institution that requires people to offloading some of their critical thinking. Or you can blend them together and get the worst of both worlds by creating something that looks like the more noxious elements of the American Evangelical movement.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by lo_zamoyski on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:00PM (#35905841)
> You either get the fundamentalism of hardline scripturalists or you get the corruption that comes with a hierarchical institution that requires people to offloading some of their critical thinking.

I don't think it is fair to say the latter leads to "corruption" or "offloading some of their critical thinking". This phobia is largely a feature of radical individualism and the lack of humility that the notion of radical self-sufficiency (intellectual or otherwise) entails. The paradox of individualism is that it actually weakens the ability to be an individual. Human beings are social animals whose lives are relatively short and therefore whose experiences are limited. And because individualism atomizes the individual, the effect is that this social animal becomes subject to greater levels of fear and stress about his isolation, and when isolated from the social and from tradition, he becomes easy prey for weird ideologies.

In this specific case, scriptural canon was compiled by the Catholic Church. You obviously cannot appeal to the canon to codify the canon, so some extra-biblical body of knowledge and understanding must exist that would allow such a canonical body of scripture to be identified. This body of knowledge and understanding is called Tradition, and it is guarded, refined, and transmitted by an unbroken chain of authority found in the apostolic succession. (Tradition is the basis for the transmission and development of all knowledge in human history; there is likewise a scientific tradition without which there could be no science.) The notion that an individual could do better alone without relying or drawing on tradition is belied by the presence of over 40,000 Protestant sects in the US alone, each claiming to be able to interpret scripture. And how do they interpret scripture? However they want! In most cases, it means interpreting it according to whatever happens to be fashionable at the time. So much for "critical thinking". This is very visible in the mainline Protestant churches that, not so incidentally, are shrinking very rapidly. Where this Protestant mindset has leeched into Catholic circles, it has produced the same deadly effect.