News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by mike_hock on Thursday May 11, 2023 @04:07AM (#35899248)
Ironically, we'd never know what he said had it not been written down.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ly3xqhl8g9 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @04:28AM (#35899400)
Plato gives multiple hints across his works about the esoteric, unwritten teachings [1]. We can only speculate about the content; for me, they were surely tied with the Eleusinian Mysteries [2]: early, myths-driven psychonautics based on ergot.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_unwritten_doctrines

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by asimpletune on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:19AM (#35899742)
I also think he had a bunch written teachings that were intended only for his students. Obviously they’re lost to time.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by ly3xqhl8g9 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:27AM (#35899785)
With some luck and intelligence maybe we will discover more about the past in the future [1].

[1] https://scrollprize.org

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by asimpletune on Thursday May 11, 2023 @07:57AM (#35900898)
Yeah, I've been excited about this because we're only about a month away until the ink detection deadline.
Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by eternalban on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:24AM (#35899771)
[I snooped a bit: "the mark of a succesful meaning transmission with time-travel in meaning space"]

In the Qur'an there is reference to something called Mantiq-at-Tayr and this is usually translated/understood as "Bird Logic". Because the reference is to 'Solomon' and his declaration to people that he and his father David were "taught Mantiq at'Tayr'" by God. And there is a work by a world class "psychonaut" named Attar of Neishapoor who wrote a book called by the same name and translated as "Conference of the Birds". (Note 'Bird' also means 'flier'. Mantiq can also meen logic.)

So I am certain this refers to esoteric speech and the "birds" in question that had conversations with Solomon were "fliers" (as in practicing psychonaut) and the matter is related to -Godel- and limitations of discerning 'truth' via text.

There is a 'communion in conversation' that is never achieved in text.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by marginalia_nu on Thursday May 11, 2023 @04:17AM (#35899330)
Yeah, and then some.

Tired Alfred North Whitehead quotes aside, he's basically the single most influential author in the western tradition, arguably even eclipsing the bible.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by coldtea on Thursday May 11, 2023 @06:50AM (#35900374)
We would, if we retained an oral tradition (as in the case in that Platonic dialogue).

And even better, we would know it by heart.

Assuning we considered it important of course. But that would be another benefit: it would also filter unimportant works over time.

Of course not everybody would know it by heart. That's a third benefit: only people interested and caring enough would know Plato. Not dilletantes.

Re:When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of... by digging on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:47AM (#35902952)
I disagree with all of the above.

If we never had writing, would the Huns have carried forth Platonic wisdom? Would it really have survived thousands of years of cultural evolution and the decline of Greek civilization itself? Who even is the "we" who should consider it important?

> that would be another benefit: it would also filter unimportant works over time.

How would it even be possible to know what's been lost in the oral tradition without anyone writing things down? Only takes one autocrat to massacre followers of a specific tradition to effectively erase it. Things get filtered based on their ability to survive, which is partially a function of "importance", whatever that actually means at a given time.

> a third benefit: only people interested and caring enough would know Plato. Not dilletantes.

This just seems like unabashed elitism. A "benefit" of the oral tradition is that knowledge is reserved for the deserving? No thanks.