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Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by thriftwy on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:10PM (#35894766)
> The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia is not remotely like an atrocity like the destruction of Grozny.

Why is that?

At least, Russia has rebuilt Grozny since then, whereas NATO just left Serbs to their own devices.

Neither do Russians care that much what people of the EU feel. We have our own mental resources to reflect on the shit we made, so the NATO countries are encouraged to reflect on their own shit and stop nagging us. And take your NGOs with you.

Meanwhile we still have a war to win, or at least to end.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by mustacheemperor on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:21PM (#35894926)
I'm not sure if you genuinely think the extent of the destruction in Grozny is comparable to the extent of the destruction in Yugoslavia after the NATO intervention, but it wasn't, and neither was the need to rebuild. NATO did not grind any Yugoslav cities to dust, and killed hundreds, not thousands, of civilians. Furthermore, NATO did not invade and conquer Yugoslavia, which seems like a key point in regards to rebuilding. The Chechens did not get the opportunity to rebuild Grozny themselves because Russia destroyed their government, tricked their leadership into being slain while withdrawing, and re-created their state as Russian. The Chechens wanted to be left to their own devices to run their country. Russia invaded in response, and killed and destroyed until there was nothing left to defend.

Can you recognize the absolute distortion of perspective it takes to look at Russia invading Chechenya to prevent its independence, destroying its capital to force it to surrender, and then say "well at least Russia rebuilt it after they conquered it!"

>NATO countries are encouraged to reflect on their own shit and stop nagging us

Your country invaded a NATO-friendly nation on the border of NATO. You are not being "nagged" when that country's government calls the world for aid and the world, shocked and appalled at the actions of your bloodthirsty regime, responds.

Look, I won't even attempt to convince you any further - either your government will collapse and the harsh rays of sunlight will expose the truth for you, or your government will continue to close its doors to the outside world until what you believe won't matter at all anyway. I don't imagine I have the rhetorical ability to break through your distorted worldview myself.

You lost this war in 2021. At this point, it's just a question of how many Ukrainian and Russian lives you will waste before accepting it.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by thriftwy on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:28PM (#35895012)
If you take a look at the map for the minute, you will see that Ichkeria's independence were untenable. It is a landlocked region with no roads to anywhere that isn't Russian Federation, with a small and very mountainous border to Georgia.

They never had any kind of economy other than dwindling oil extraction, but also robbing trains passing through, stealing gas from pipelines, sending false bank transfers (why they were still hooked up to Russian banking system) and taking people hostage for ransom. All of these things are documented in much detail.

Cosmopolitain city of Grozny has successfully expelled most of its pre-war non-Chechen population (including the family of my cousin) and had open slave markets selling whoever they could get ahold of.

Maybe they had a chance if Russia would continue to crumble, but by 1999 Russia got some of its shit together. Ichkeria did not have any economy but had a plenty of armed men, so they just decided to attack the neighbouring province of Dagestan. Putin used this as an opportunity to solve the issue of Ingushetia. Perhaps a more peaceful transition was possible, but with amount of armed jihadists in it, that seems not likely.

I have specifically asked a known Russian historian, Evgeny Norin, an author of at least three books touching the subject, whether Putin has used any kind of provocation or false flag to start Chechen War 2, and the answer was basically what I wrote above. He also told a story of a girl in Voronezh, a daughter of a local businessman, who was kidnapped by Ichkerians for ransom and is still available on social networks, avoiding showing her hands on photos since she does not have some of the fingers intact.

But of course, here am I the zombified and uncivilized Russian who knows nothing about this topic, whereas you are much better informed having read some cherry picked material in the democratic press. My historial probably a paid or intimidated Putin's puppet, whereas your journalists are up to the best practices of fact checking. You also have much better potassium than we do.

Meanwhile, NATO could avoid bombing Yugoslavia entirely. It could also avoid losing Mosul to ISIS and then turning it to fine piece of rubble, not in any way less well done than Grozny or Mariupol (which is also being rebuilt as we speak).

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by czzr on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:49PM (#35895211)
In the end, your arguments in this thread always come back to “well, they did it too” or “they deserved it”.

I hope one day Russia and Russians find a way to contribute hope to the world, instead of sad and pointless destruction.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by thriftwy on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:08PM (#35895419)
I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans, while having worse prior history and being overally more poor and miserable.

That would be a noble expectation, but you could predict that it will not be uphold. Maybe because it is not possible in practice, or at least highly implausible.

Russans, in general, are people. People go to war when told to do so by their superiors. People rationalize what happens in the moment, to reflect on it and be outraged later.

If you were doing that in a good faith, good for you, but as you can see that's not how the world works.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by dathinab on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:43PM (#35895751)
> People go to war when told to do so by their superiors.

Actually many do not.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by phlipski on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @10:42PM (#35896673)
And allegedly upwards of 700,000 Russians have decided to NOT got to war and have fled the country! This source is 7 months old. You've got to figure that even more have fled since!

https://www.reuters.com/world/e7urope/where-have-russians-be...

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by jen20 on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:48PM (#35896290)
> People go to war when told to do so by their superiors.

They absolutely do not if they want to be considered of good moral character.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by thriftwy on Thursday May 11, 2023 @04:22AM (#35899362)
Who said they do? They want to be respected members of their community and want to keep their country intact, leaving the moral character stuff to Immanuel Kant.
Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by chrysler on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:05PM (#35896846)
>> I can see that you expect Russians to be better people than Germans or Americans

More Germans opposed Nazism than Russians oppose Putinism.

"It has been estimated that during the course of World War II 800,000 Germans were arrested by the Gestapo for resistance activities. It has also been estimated that between 15,000 and 77,000 of the Germans were executed by the Nazis."

Nothing comparable exists in Russia. You like Putin more than Germans liked Hitler.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by yks on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @08:07PM (#35895412)
Your comment is a masterful exhibit of an imperial thought, deciding for the conquered people that their independence is "untenable", because after all those people are just "criminals".

Might have as well thrown in some other classic Russian quotes about Chechens having "no morals, nothing to distinguish them from wild beasts" (that one is from 1824).

Of course you're blind to how Russian imperialism creates and perpetrates this condition, blinded by imperial greed to acquire and hold onto the lands, while being always brutal, after all they are all "beasts" and "criminals", Chechens, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, whoever else the eye of a conqueror falls onto. Happy that the other countries dropping bombs somewhere else give you a carte blanche to bomb hospitals and apartment buildings methodically and with glee. Being proud of bringing more suffering into this already troubled world.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by thriftwy on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:29AM (#35898459)
Imagine you are Putin in 1999 and you have to solve the problem of Ichkeria right there right now. You can't go back to 1824. Or 1944. Or 1992.

What do you do? I've described the context.

If you do nothing, Ichkerians will hostage or rob more people and your popular support will dwindle because of your inaction and somebody more eager takes your place.

I am patiently explaining it to you for some reason, whereas in context of Iraq, Lybia and Syria this is completely moot.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by kspacewalk2 on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:21PM (#35896051)
Oh goody, Mariupol is being rebuilt! Mostly as a vehicle for good old fashioned construction related corruption, and at a pace that'll take 50+ years, but hey, nice of you to throw that in there! Is the replacement of thousands of civilians butchered by Russia's "liberators" also under way?
Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by bluepizza on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:15PM (#35894827)
I sincerely hope that you find a way out of a violent and destructive mindset. The only one to blame for Russia's isolation and woes are Russians themselves.

The day that Russia stops sabotaging elections, bribing officials, and murdering innocents is the day that Russia will be accepted openly.

Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by abvaw on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:20PM (#35894916)
There are other countries that do all of that and more and we accept them openly. Isn't that hypocrisy?
Re:Expensive energy may have killed more Europeans than Covi... by throwway120385 on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @07:59PM (#35895332)
Whataboutism is always the recourse for someone who doesn't see a moral imperative to stop doing bad things. "Everyone does it. What's wrong if we do it too?" Well the point isn't to sink to the lowest low humanity has to offer but to try to be better than everyone else, and you can't claim the moral high ground by arguing from the bottom of the hill.