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Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by rahimnathwani on Monday May 08, 2023 @06:26PM (#35867748)
Perhaps they use the same technology as ligatures? There could be a glyph for the standalone character, but also special glyphs for certain combos?

The page says they do handle variations:

  Pronunciation in the Cantonese Font adapts to the context. Based on what comes before or after, the Jyutping romanization changes to the right one. The magic behind this is a careful curation from 100,000 contexts where the pronunciation differs from the standalone character.
Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jeffparsons on Monday May 08, 2023 @07:24PM (#35868257)
I've seen ligatures (or whatever the underlying feature is in font formats) used for some wild stuff, but this takes the cake. They're effectively encoding a small amount of natural language processing in a font.

Setting aside for a minute the question of whether you _should_, I wonder how far you can take this? I.e. what limits are there on how much context you can take into account, etc.?

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by philsnow on Monday May 08, 2023 @07:51PM (#35868502)
I think it also uses ligatures to render words from the "phrasebook", where you can take a word like "friend" and change the font from Times to this font, and it renders it as 朋友. Beautiful.
Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by TylerE on Monday May 08, 2023 @08:39PM (#35868871)
Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jkwchui on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @02:34AM (#35870867)
(Font author)

This is all off the beaten path, so I suspect the answer is no one knows. Font tables have a limit of 65k characters, but this ceiling can be busted in whacky ways using multiple lookups, useExtension... Practically, font building tools / operations crash (mysteriously), stalls (mysteriously), or slows to a crawl (indistinguishable from stalling), and the Cantonese Font about pushes the limit.

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jkwchui on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @02:29AM (#35870837)
Hello. Font's author here. You and Jeff are correct in guessing this is (ab)using ligatures maximally :) To satisfy your curiosity, we can go deeper.

----

Conceptually it is simple: 1. assign a default (most likely) sound for each character, 2. loop through contexts, extracting words (char-combos) where the sound is different from the default ("alt-word") 3. create SVGs + font-paths (fallback for incompatible systems) for every char and every alt-word 4. assign a ligature to substitute each char-sequence that forms the alt-word (e.g., "when 乾 隆 appears adjacently, replace with `uniF1234` (the codepoint for the alt-word 乾隆")

It is not perfect, but I didn't expect this to work so well, and was stunned when the testers report high accuracy. I have always believed that bespoke computation with word segmentation (with some 1M frequency attached library) and large data-bank (100k+ words) was necessary.

----

Practically it was horrific, tedious, mind-numbing, gawd-awful set of "why this doesn't work": 1. SVG automation that works for 10^3 breaks with 10^5 2. what worked for Latin breaks for unicode 3. what worked for unicode breaks for PUA 4. what worked for monochrome breaks for color 5. what worked for single glyphs breaks for ligatures 6. what?! The assignments in the database is wrong?? 7. [...]

As I was trying to coerce the system to do what it wasn't designed to do, many of these breaks are undocumented, pretty mysterious to solve, and some steps just got manually gritted through. (And each of the 15k+ glyphs got gritted through about five times.)

It does look pretty elegant at the end ;)

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by creamyhorror on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @02:55AM (#35871001)
That is amazing work. You've really plumbed the depths of what's possible with font technology, kudos.
Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jkwchui on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:13AM (#35873822)
Thank you. Who is really amazing is Simon Cozens, who wrote a set of articles on fonts/global script: https://simoncozens.github.io/fonts-and-layout/

The history of digital fonts added a great deal of complexity to font formats, and without him writing such a concise yet comprehensive guide, I would have been stuck for even longer.

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by ackfoobar on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @03:07AM (#35871080)
In the FAQ you mentioned

> Unfortunately, without being able to do proper word segmentation, this will remain a limitation.

Can the user manually add a zero width space to help?

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jkwchui on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:08AM (#35873770)
Technically yes, but the general public probably doesn't have a concept of zero-width space.

(For everyone else wonder what ackfoobar is proposing: let's take the phrase (if you don't read Chinese, just treat them as shapes) 香港地少人多, properly segmented, is 香港.地少.人多. The font treats this incorrectly, because "香港地" is a commonly used fragment, the 地 in the fragment have a special sound, and parsing as 香港地.少.人多 gives a mistaken sound for 地.

Ackfoobar is absolutely correct that we can coerce the correct reading by going 香港[ ]地少人多 --- where the [ ] is an invisible spacer. My contention is that most users don't know how to do that in their favorite word processor.

Someone is probably thinking, could you add "香港地少" as a fragment? Purist says it's not pretty, but I'm a pragmatist, so I did do many of these patching. Doing this or not relies on some acumen as a native speaker, and there were hundreds of these decisions made. This language knowledge would be necessary if someone were to do Mandarin (or Thai or, ...))

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jfk13 on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @06:29AM (#35872228)
This is an awesome piece of work - congratulations!

I notice you're using OpenType-SVG here; have you investigated whether it would be possible to implement this using COLRv1 (which would potentially result in a lighter-weight font, I suspect, and eventually wider support)? Or are there technical limitations in COLRv1 that make it impossible?

Re:Cantonese Font with Pronunciation by jkwchui on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @08:42AM (#35873499)
Color fonts really hasn't converged into a standard, and their adoption is slow. OpenType-SVG was accepted 10 years ago, and it was implemented into FreeType only one year ago --- it hasn't even trickled down to most Linux distros (nor is it usable on Windows). I don't see COLRv1 in Win/Mac/Linux until 2026 at the earliest.

But I did try to make it into COLRv1 (as well as COLR/CPAL). The only tools that build COLRv1 right now are the tools from the Google Fonts team; I remember them stalling for hours before saying completion, yet the output was broken (I can't remember how it was broken).

I personally would love to see a COLR/CPAL version, and have some idea on how that could happen. But I probably should be working on some revenue-generating product instead ;)