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Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by iudqnolq on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:35PM (#35837722)
If an employer purchased data from a scummy tracking company about the use of apps on a personal device outside work hours I'd be outraged too. Even if the company discovered actual wrongdoing.

The ends don't justify the means. a private organization doesn't get to spy on its members. They can ask you to install MDM, they can't peek in your bedroom window. We live in a society.

Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by WillPostForFood on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:39PM (#35837744)
It is scummy behavior to buy tracking data. But are there "outside work hours" for priests? Seems like it is an all-in kind of thing.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by COGlory on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:45PM (#35837774)
Being a priest is a vocation, not a job. There are no working hours. Their entire life must be a reflection of their beliefs.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by bigger_inside on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:26AM (#35839053)
interestng that pretty much every US company seems to think that of their bots, ehm, I mean, employees. I don't accept it for any company, and the church is also not entitled to convert all their people into good little bots who are 100% company man facade, 100% of the time
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by themitigating on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:07AM (#35839560)
Is this a legal difference?
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by TheFreim on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:53PM (#35837814)
There is no such thing as "outside work hours" for a priest. They are to serve as a leader for their congregation, actively engaging in behavior which is contrary to that mission should absolutely be exposed.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by iudqnolq on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:07AM (#35837875)
Fair point on the work hours bit. But I think there has to be some limit on the kinds of investigation allowed.

I think society is better off if nobody is allowed to purchase advertising data that identifies specific people and use it to uncover their activities.

Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by TheFreim on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:40AM (#35838069)
I am generally inclined to agree, I think it would be best for society as a whole to not allow any service to be selling user information in the way which is common. I think having data available can be abused, but I don't really think this is a good example since the "victims" are people getting held to standards they vow to uphold.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by justinclift on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:59AM (#35839202)
> ... identifies specific people and use it to uncover their activities.

Possibly with the exception of elected officials. :)

Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by joemazerino on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:54AM (#35841946)
You're looking at this from the outside in. Priests consent to having their own thoughts and behaviors surveilled by the Clergy. This is not a legal battle. If the Priest wanted, he could just leave.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by kibwen on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:04AM (#35837860)
This is absolute nonsense. Just because some people choose not to understand the concept of work/life balance doesn't mean that the institution of the church is magically beyond reproach. Employers shouldn't get to spy on their employees, full stop. Please stop making excuses for corporate overreach.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by TheFreim on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:08AM (#35837878)
Being a priest isn't a "job". You don't commit to being a mere "employee" when you become a priest, just as a parent doesn't get to just decide to not care for their child because they don't like the "job" anymore. When you become a priest you vow to uphold certain teachings, standards, and practices.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by janosett on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:42AM (#35838087)
This is about your view of morals as they relate to religion though, right? Legally speaking priests are employees and the church is the employer. I think our government system should treat them as such.

Whether it’s right or wrong from the perspective of the church or followers of the religion should be separate from our rules about privacy.

Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:41AM (#35838399)
> Legally speaking priests are employees and the church is the employer. I think our government system should treat them as such.

Priests within a religion are something like government officials and something like members in a fraternal or sororal organization (such as the Masons or Elks). In another sense they're like "independent sales representatives" in a multi-level marketing scheme. In another sense they'd be like enlisted or officers in a military. In another sense they'd be like executives in a corporation (who have contractual fiduciary, and yes, moral obligations that regular employees don't have).

The duties and expectations are different from that of regular employees. In fact, I'm sure most religious institutions have many regular employees (such as janitors, some teachers for religious schools, etcetera), who are probably held to lesser standards.

> Whether it’s right or wrong from the perspective of the church or followers of the religion should be separate from our rules about privacy.

Yes. Unfortunately we don't have many such rules when it comes to data we've shared with third parties.

Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by TheFreim on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:01AM (#35838193)
Thank you for your thoughtful response, here are a couple of items for your consideration.

> This is about your view of morals as they relate to religion though, right? Legally speaking priests are employees and the church is the employer.

Everyone involved in this discussion is positing moral views that are independent from the current law. It's apparently legal for companies to sell their users personal data, just as a priest may be legally considered an "employee" even though I don't think that is what a priest is.

> I think our government system should treat them as such.

> Whether it’s right or wrong from the perspective of the church or followers of the religion should be separate from our rules about privacy.

I would disagree that the government should treat priests as employees, but regrettably I think this won't be a fruitful venue for discussing this since it's likely that we have too many different priors in this area that would take too long to hash out.

In terms of how privacy rules should work, I am generally inclined to support generalized prohibitions on selling/distributing user data without an explicit voluntary opt-in. Where I likely differ is in that I don't believe that in principle it's wrong to use available data in ways that I see as being moral. If a company has data that would prove one of their users is a serial killer I'd say they'd have the obligation to use that to help the killer get caught, but I also think generally in order to prevent greater societal evils that user data should be protected.

I'll try an example, hopefully it's not too strained. I think spying on people in their homes would be bad, it would be detrimental to familial privacy and unity among other things. But if someone happens to see into someone's house and witness a crime I wouldn't have any issue with that crime being reported. So I can say we should have laws preventing peeping toms/protecting privacy in homes while also not seeing every instantiation of acquiring information as being immoral in and of itself. Hope that makes sense, I'm a bit scrambled right now regrettably.

Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by joemazerino on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:55AM (#35841956)
It does because the Priests are consenting. It isn't a legal relationship - it is a spiritual one.
Re:TikTok tracked users who watched gay content, prompting e... by janalsncm on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:17AM (#35838272)
I agree with you but there is some kind of irony about priests who ostensibly believe an omniscient being watches their every move expecting privacy from digital surveillance. We are in the process of building a god of sorts (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) and I’m not sure it’s a good thing.