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Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Thursday May 04, 2023 @03:18PM (#35820718)
That seems to depend on your use case. Frankly, I don't have much use for either of them but Midjourney was much closer.

I've twice spent a couple of hours unsuccessfully trying to generate a simple background image that would be blurred out when rendering 3D models. SD out-of-the-box was far worse, but Midjourney still was not up to the task. It's incredible how well they can generate images of nearly any subject/object and make some changes to the style and placement, but trying to precisely achieve critical broad-stroke things like like perspective, sizing, lighting direction/amount/temperature, etc. was far too cumbersome. Prompt refining is just like having a program with a bunch of nebulous undocumented menu entries that you just have to click on to see what they do rather than just giving you the tools to make what you need to make. Was that the right entry or the wrong entry? Who knows! Maybe just try it again to see if it works better!

There's a fundamental disconnect between professional-level and consumer-level tools. Consumer tools must be approachable, easy to use, quickly yield appealing results, affordable, and require little maintenance. Professional tools need to be precise, reliable, capable of repeated results with the most demanding tasks, and easily serviceable into perfect working order.

These are consumer-level tools. If you merely need a cool picture of a space ship done in such and such style with such and such guns blah blah blah (that for some reason always looks 10%-50% Thomas Kinkaid,) these tools are great, but they abstract away the controls that really matter in professional work. Novices who get overwhelmed by all of those factors love it because they don't understand, and probably don't care about what they're giving up. For serious work, aside from getting inspo images or maybe generating deliberately weird bits of whatever, they're hit-or-miss at best. Without exception, doing a rough mock-up in a modelling program took FAR less time than trying to wrangle exactly what I needed from one of those generators.

I'm sure they'll get there someday but right now they're miles away from being professional-quality image generation tools.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Thursday May 04, 2023 @03:31PM (#35820902)
I will say though that low-effort higher-volume professionals (e.g. mobile game mills, Fiverrrr designers) will likely profit from these tools once they can out-compete cheap online assets from stock images/models/etc. but they're so not there yet.
Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by jstarfish on Thursday May 04, 2023 @03:48PM (#35821130)
> Without exception, doing a rough mock-up in a modelling program took FAR less time than trying to wrangle exactly what I needed from one of those generators.

I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of the tech-- they think they can get exactly what they want if they are articulate enough in describing it with words.

Feed your rough mock-up to img2img (or use inpaint sketch) and you'll land much closer to where you're trying to go.

It's a power tool. It will do tedious manual work (producing art) very quickly. The difference between professionals and consumers in how they use it is that the professional asks the machine to "finish what I started," whereas the consumer tells the machine to "do all of the work for me."

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:39PM (#35821738)
I tried img2img. It will do rough finishing work but it won't take some lighting vectors and match my lighting. It won't shift the viewpoint by 18 degrees. It puts a smooth sheen on rough work with broad stroke needs and that's valuable in some cases, but it is not a general-purpose professional tool.

Canva fits most people's needs but it only fits the needs of a narrow slice of professionals. Trying to use it for professional work takes vastly more time and effort than using a proper professional tool. LaTeX fits academic paper publisher's needs and can pump out formatted and laid-out text far quicker than someone using InDesign but you'd go crazy trying to assemble a modern magazine or high-end book. It doesn't need polish or sheen. It needs something fundamentally structurally different.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by jstarfish on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:45PM (#35822520)
Fair enough. Your 3D modeling needs might be a bit advanced for the current state of things. It works pretty well for flat graphic design, stock photo or illustration purposes.

I'm holding out for an instruct-based model that will take explicit instructions, or at least layered prompts. Mutating the original prompt along with the picture (or changing the entire thing to only describe certain parts, a la inpainting) is frustrating to me.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:27PM (#35823459)
That's just one specific example of why it fails as a high-level general professional tool. Even for tasks like straight-up photo finishing... might be OK for making some neat thing or adding some generated detail to a phone shot but no way that's going to finish someone's professionally shot photos. It might replace Fiverr graphic design that was probably done with a template but real graphic design has conceptual meaning. Making the actual assets is the easy part.

I think what most developers don't realize is that creating media, even snazzy, captivating images, is a tiny portion of the work commercial artists and designers do beyond Fiverr or the people working at sign shops. We've got bazillions of stock photos, asset stores, etc. etc. etc. available at our fingertips at a pretty low cost... and we use them, just as we'll use AI generated images in our processes... Just not for anything that actually matters. Reducing art and design to what so many people have is nearly akin to reducing coding to how fast someone can generate code regardless of it's suitability for the purpose. I could go into Adobe Illustrator and make most of the vector art you see on the net in a few minutes. Knowing what needs to go on the screen, exactly how it needs to go on the screen, and the effects of putting it there, what it communicates and to whom, etc. etc. etc. are the hard parts. You could have a tool that would instantly translate millions of pretty images from someone's imagination in a matter of milliseconds but that's not going to make them useful for communication or anything else.

So very much of this hype is people simply assuming that they understand something that they don't. And that's why the UIs for most FOSS applications suck yet the project contributors will defend them like their own children.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by ChatGTP on Thursday May 04, 2023 @08:47PM (#35824038)
I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of the tech-- they think they can get exactly what they want if they are articulate enough in describing it with words

Who's fault is this though? The hype is absolutely hysterical.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Thursday May 04, 2023 @09:49PM (#35824399)
Thanks! That's pretty neat. The sample images look a bit overwrought like a lot of other AI images do but I'll bet they're doing that to follow the trend rather than it being a technical limitation.
Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by cubefox on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:36AM (#35827928)
Wrong thread?
Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:45PM (#35833536)
yep. Really need to stop commenting when I'm waiting on after-hours compiles.
Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by jamilton on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:47PM (#35822557)
ControlNet helps a lot with composition and lighting (https://sandner.art/create-atmospheric-effects-in-stable-dif...). It requires more work than just entering a prompt, but probably less work than doing it manually once you get used to it. I think there's a number of StableDiffusion clients in development that are trying to make this easier.
Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:45PM (#35833541)
Ha... I accidentally replied to the wrong comment. Anyway, thanks! That's pretty neat. The sample images look a bit overwrought like a lot of other AI images do but I'll bet they're doing that to follow the trend rather than it being a technical limitation.
Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by cubefox on Friday May 05, 2023 @08:10AM (#35828220)
Classical professional tools like Photoshop have a lot less potential though. They are very precise, but (I assume) they have barely advanced in the past decade. Tools based on generative AI will probably improve massively over the next few years. Most such tools seem currently based on Stable Diffusion, and apparently OpenAI/Midjourney/Google have zero interest in supporting such tools. But this could change soon, e.g. when Adobe tries to compete with the SD ecosystem.

We already now see deepfakes (e.g. of Trump or the Pope, recently even videos) that a far beyond what we saw in the years before, indicating that the old professional tools weren't so powerful after all. Now if we extrapolate this a few years into the future...

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:57PM (#35836582)
You assume wrong. What these tools offer is constantly churning. Far faster than ever before and Photoshop has been around for over 30 years. They release updates constantly. Photoshop got AI filters like detail enhancement for zooming a few years ago. Automatic object detection, content-aware delete, etc. etc etc. a few years before that. That's only what I can recall off the top of my head for Photoshop alone, but it's such a giant environment that even most of their own product people probably couldn't tell you off the cuff. In areas like video compositing, tools like Nuke are developing tools with these capabilities even more quickly... and they better when the cheap license costs $3500/yr.

As I mentioned in another comment, so much of this hype is based on developers assuming they understand something that they don't. I've indulged in this hubris as a developer but straddling both sides of this line has been illuminating.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by cubefox on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:56PM (#35844304)
Well, Adobe at least seems headed to fully embrace the generative AI hype now:

https://www.adobe.com/sensei/generative-ai/firefly.html

This sounds all very similar to the Stable Diffusion tool chain, though probably cloud based and with a more intuitive UI on top.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by chefandy on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:00PM (#35844865)
All of these technologies are being integrated into professional toolkits in ways that make sense when they're polished enough to be professionally useful... and for the foreseeable future, that's how it will stay. Beyond the high-volume low-effort work on places like Fiverr, commercial artists and designers are valuable for their ability to think conceptually and make the artistic decisions about what goes on the screen, where, and why. The how is an implementation detail. Designers dropped balsamiq in favor of sketch in no time flat, and then dropped sketch in favor of figma even more quickly. Adobe XD, capable and included for free in an ecosystem they already use, it's barely in the conversation. These are fields where people readily adopt new technology that suits their needs but the current tools aren't even in the ballpark.

Being able to quickly generate and iterate on assets is great for inspiration but pretty useless for professional output without fine-tuned, predictable, repeatable controls. These tools will simply integrate with existing professional tools until they can do it better.

Imagine the first person to make an electric saw made some automated thing that could cut the wood to make a cool looking flat pack house somewhere in the neighborhood of your specifications in 5 minutes. The caveats: while it would assemble perfectly, the actual angles of the cuts might be unpredictable... Like 40 and 50 degrees rather than 45 and 45, and the layout was never quite what you expect even if it was OK more often than not. Pros knew those were fundamentally deal breakers for professional work, and remained more professionally useful with their hand saws because they had the required precision, control, and predictability. While enthusiasts were gong crazy exploring all of the different kinds of oh-so-slightly wonky structures they could generate and predicting the end of carpentry, the old school saw companies started making circular saws, chop saws, drills, and the like. The market for handyman-built dog houses, sheds and playhouses would immediately be lost to the automated machine but I guarantee you that all consequential work would still be done by carpenters with power tools.

Re:Google “We Have No Moat, and Neither Does OpenAI” by cubefox on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:40PM (#35846411)
I agree that for the foreseeable future designers / commerical artists will have to overall decide "what goes on the screen, where, and why", but not anymore for all smaller scale details. Generative AI automates creativity at least to some extent, which is qualitatively different from past developments. The example with the island tortoise on the Adobe website is not a real demo, but it doesn't seem far away.