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Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by happytiger on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:29PM (#35805926)
You can't embrace open source, stand for freedom on the Internet, and simultaneously engage in dark patterns like this without destroying user trust. And trust with users is the currency of the 21st century as much as data is the new oil.

Microsoft needs to get their brand straight and decide, once and for all, what they stand for. There was this incredible move towards open source, and embracing the modern web, and so many positive developments. I think myself, and many other technologists, were going, "Wait, is this is the same company that shoved IE down our throats for years and got sued for anti-competitive practices?" It was glorious, and shocking.

All of that is now at risk so that some product manager can look good by driving enforced but entirely fake adoption of Edge — that should be nipped in the bud and a clear message sent that this era is over — from the top executives.

Or I supposed they could do nothing, and then it truly is sending a clear message as well. But perhaps not the one Microsoft intends to send, or the one that would benefit the company in coming years in terms of staying inside the good graces they have managed to create.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by tempodox on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:40PM (#35806069)
Obviously their dark patterns are not sufficient to drive away enough users and this has been the case for decades. Nothing new to see here, it's the same old MSFT of yore.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by bobthepanda on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:08PM (#35806418)
I mean with desktop OS systems you've got

* macs, which cost an arm and a leg and aren't necessarily better if you've got an axe to grind against corporations with dark patterns

* chromebooks, where you have even less choice over the matter

* various flavors of Linux, which have never quite gotten to 'grandma uses it and it just works with the apps she likes'

Interestingly SteamOS is quite nice, but will it be something outside of gaming on a Steam Deck?

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by stinkytaco on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:30PM (#35806620)
> Interestingly SteamOS is quite nice, but will it be something outside of gaming on a Steam Deck?

Considering their website[1] still says it's Debian derived but they switched to Arch some time ago, I doubt it's in their plans to do more than enable their own hardware.

[1]: https://store.steampowered.com/steamos

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by helmholtz on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:44PM (#35807516)
Maybe not enough, but certainly some. I'm not a software person, and yet my personal machine now runs linux, exactly _because_ of Microsoft's wankery with no local accounts, uninstallable Edge, Cortana, news on the fucking taskbar, and the shitty Windows 11 with its shitty taskbar. Fuck all that noise. Life is calm and great in linux land.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by than3 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:05PM (#35807802)
That's because they have backroom deals with the manufacturers.

Its impossible to compete when the manufacturers are actively hostile and don't provide the firmware/code/specs in a way that the hardware can be supported independently. Some even use this to spy under an umbrella of plausible deniability, there was an article just recently about Qualcomm chips that did this (checked in) at the firmware level.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by sneak on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:32PM (#35805971)
A proprietary software company never makes a "move toward open source". Microsoft released some things with source simply to sell more proprietary software that does not respect user freedoms.

Open source and free software is a philosophy and ideology. Microsoft is incompatible with it no matter what licenses they use.

Microsoft never embraced open source. You can't claim that until and unless Windows is released with source as free software, which will Never Ever Happen.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by m463 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:43PM (#35806106)
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by geodel on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:44PM (#35806123)
> You can't claim that until and unless Windows is released with source as free software, which will Never Ever Happen.

That would wouldn't change a thing even it happens. No one except Microsoft is going to be expert on 50 million lines of windows code and contribute meaningfully to it. Add to that contributor's licensing agreement, community behavior, sheer capacity to make API changes and get it accepted. It will be impossible to create alternate certified Windows distribution even if all source code was available.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by LocalH on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:51PM (#35806207)
Not immediately, no. But what about in 25 years?
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by waboremo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:56PM (#35806267)
Open source and free software are separate things, despite how much they're used interchangeably.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by SllX on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:57PM (#35806277)
That’s more of a free software mentality. Open source is just open source; Microsoft has some open source software, they use some open source software, but they are in the business of selling proprietary software and free software as Stallman defined it is antithetical to that.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by mistrial9 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:26PM (#35806590)
MSFT is indeed embracing open source -- prediction -- a polluted and key-controlled Debian will be inside the next OS, filled with Azure management python packages and adware. Second, Canonical as indentured servent, will deliver anything that Redmond requests as snapd, with phone-home welded ON and more expiring keys.

You are not the customer here. You are a cog in an industrial machine. It is the executive management that has power, and you will know it every day. MSFT will sell your management the tools you are required to use every day.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by ghostly_s on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:15PM (#35806480)
Many of us kept our trust rating for MS right around zero despite their "embrace of open source"; it seems we were correct in recognizing it as nothing more than a recognition of market realities packaged up as a marketing ploy.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by beerpls on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:39PM (#35806709)
It’s not just about trust, MS is outright hostile.

Hostile UI, hostile business practices, hostile legal and growth endeavors

At this point i’m not hust distrusting MS i’m actively doing anything I can to support their demise

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by out-of-ideas on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:41PM (#35807483)
aren't all these providers-of-things hostile in about (all ways) or at least most ways than not hostile ways? MS, Apple, Google, Amazon, FB, Adobe, IBM... they just want money; where's the money? <insert stewie+brian>
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by beerpls on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:07PM (#35819674)
I feel the same about them all, tho MS google and fb all top the ranks imho
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by trinsic2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:06PM (#35807813)
Embrace and Extend.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by javcasas on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:51PM (#35808894)
Ya forgot Extinguish. Microsoft didn't.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by lallysingh on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:24PM (#35807994)
So.. how does everyone feel about their stuff on GitHub right now?
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by bsuvc on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:42PM (#35808177)
They tend to lock issues frequently.

Presumably it is to prevent people discussing problems at length. I don't know any other reason they would do that.

It seems to go against how most other organizations use GitHub.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by doctor_lollipop on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:43PM (#35808187)
... or about needing a Microsoft (GitHub) account to publish Rust packages (on crates.io).
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by Waterluvian on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:09PM (#35808476)
I was surprised to hear this so I went searching. Yep. Wow. [1]

I use GitHub all the time but I never expected it to be mandatory if you wanted to publish a package for a popular open source language.

But as the top says, “If you are interested in helping with this work, please feel free to get started!” (Though only if you’re a contributor or open a duplicate issue)

[1] https://github.com/rust-lang/crates.io/issues/326

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:35PM (#35808722)
This "embrace of open source" is a confusing perspective. I guess it's not the same sort of open source as I get from UNIX-like projects. I have still yet to download and compile any source code from MSFT. Whether it's a tiny utility or and entire OS, nothing to run on bare metal. I must be interested in the wrong software. To give an example, Where's the source for imagex.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by croutonwagon on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:09PM (#35809056)
I feel like even during the IE days microsoft was coining the term “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish”.

We are just in the cycle on a modern platform. Heading out of phase 2 and into phase 3.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by rakoo on Thursday May 04, 2023 @03:42AM (#35812471)
Thing is, they embraced open source, not libre software aka copyleft. Non-copyleft as always been about taking from others and not giving back. Whoever has ever thought differently never understood that non-copyleft is a tool of liberalism, not community building
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by grey_earthling on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:44PM (#35806755)
> Microsoft needs to get their brand straight and decide, once and for all, what they stand for.

They stand for weary resignation. Same as Google and Amazon.

For most people, they're just there, and you can't not use them, so what can you do?

They can be as dodgy as they like, because when you point out what they're doing, most people will just be confused about why you're complaining, because you may as well be railing against the fact that rain is wet.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by jmartrican on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:05PM (#35807043)
Add Adobe to that list.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by staunton on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:31PM (#35808056)
Add every single big company in the world to that list.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by trinsic2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:09PM (#35807838)
LOL, you are so right on that, average users do not understands the issues at hand about this, we need some kind of movement that better explains the issue.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by rtsil on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:47PM (#35809410)
And yet average users fled IE en masse as soon as they had a (back then) good alternative. There is still hope!
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by grey_earthling on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:35AM (#35813833)
I'm not sure they fled IE as such. They saw a link (advert) on Google that said “make your internet better” and they clicked it.

Yes, some techies actively chose Chrome knowing full-well what the alternatives were, but I'm pretty sure the advertising produced much greater numbers.

(Also, the techies who enthusiastically recommended Chrome were the same ones who enthusiastically recommended Twitter a few years later, and are now enthusiastically recommending Signal — which illustrates the quality of their judgement when it comes to monopolies.)

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by screamin_jesus on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @05:46PM (#35880810)
Techies enthusiastically recommended chrome because it was by far the most stable and responsive and secure browser.

Prior to quantum, firefox was a dog, and let's not talk about internet explorer...

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by Arch-TK on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:07PM (#35807061)
"Wait, is this is the same company that shoved IE down our throats for years and got sued for anti-competitive practices?"

Really though?

It was that easy?

On my shit-list it's definitely way above Facebook, Apple, and Google. A company which has on so many occasions made my life harder and caused me to suffer. I would qualify Microsoft as irredeemably horrible, I can't imagine what they would have to do to make me consider changing my opinion of them.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by xg15 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:07PM (#35807068)
> And trust with users is the currency of the 21st century as much as data is the new oil.

Is it? The cynic in me feels that the actual currency is "engagement" - how many consumers can you keep ob your platform. Providing a great and trustworthy service is one strategy to archieve this, but by far not the most effective or reliable.

The big players very much seem to prefer a captive audience (through network effects, vendor-controlled hardware, closed ecosystems, etc) that cannot switch away no matter how much they personally dislike or mistrust the platform.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by panic on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:16PM (#35807188)
It’s impossible for an organization the size of Microsoft to behave according to a consistent set of values. Don’t rely on their “good graces” for an instant.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by than3 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:03PM (#35807773)
Microsoft is no better than an accounting firm at this point. The only reason they are still around is because of the data collection from spying on their users, and malign and coercive practices that are illegal but remain unenforced probably due to some backroom deal they made regarding the former.

They had a few good ideas early on, and now that open source isn't patent bound (not gonna get into the rediculousness of UI software patents that have been granted where they never met that bar of novel, useful, and non-obvious [grouping items is somehow non-obvious?]).,

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by bobbylarrybobby on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:32PM (#35808696)
No, the reason they're around is because probably 95% of businesses in the US rely on their software in one form or another.
Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by than3 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @08:04PM (#35809550)
Bobby,

If you take that statement you just made, and take it just one step further, asking a why is that when they haven't really innovated in 20+ years?

The realistic answer to that is exactly what I just said. Alternate revenue streams.

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by l0b0 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:52PM (#35808900)
> Microsoft needs to get their brand straight and decide, once and for all, what they stand for.

Money. How would it be possible for an absolutely gigantic company to stand for anything else?

Re:MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge a... by dheera on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:07PM (#35809043)
> Microsoft needs to get their brand straight and decide, once and for all, what they stand for.

Actually, they don't. People will continue to keep buying Microsoft regardless of how shitty their products and policies are.

Nobody was ever fired for picking Microsoft. When Microsoft products have issues, people blame Microsoft, but when anything else has issues, people blame the IT person who chose that product. The result is everyone picking Microsoft to shift blame away from themselves.