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Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by lexandstuff on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:40PM (#35782110)
It's not environmentalists who are anti-nuclear; it's everyday people. No one wants to live anywhere near a nuclear power station. Turns out, making multiple cities uninhabitable was terrible publicity for nuclear power.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by astrange on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:41PM (#35782122)
Nearby coal plants are not only worse for you than nuclear plants, they're also more radioactive.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by anigbrowl on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:11PM (#35782410)
Correct, but that doesn't let the nuclear power industry off the hook. Statistically, they have an adequate record. But there are way too many examples of people denying or covering up nuclear failures only to be subsequently embarrassed by facts. I'm pro-nuclear but reflexive endorsement of the industry is just as embarrassing as reflexive opposition.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by jltsiren on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:16PM (#35782459)
The difference is in the risk profile.

The risks of coal power are dominated by the typical case. People have been living near coal plants for generations, they know what the risks mean in the real life, and they have generally found the risks acceptable.

Nuclear risks are dominated by rare disasters. Because most people have not experienced nuclear disasters near home, they don't know what it would mean in the real life. As the risks are unfamiliar, many people find them scary.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by astrange on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:51PM (#35782710)
> People have been living near coal plants for generations, they know what the risks mean in the real life, and they have generally found the risks acceptable.

…honestly I'm like 100% sure they don't know what the risks are.

Every time anyone does a study on air pollution it turns out the effects are even more horrible than we already thought it was. Like it gives you dementia and cancer.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by jltsiren on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:59PM (#35783218)
That's why I mentioned "real life". People may not know the specific risks associated with specific causes, but they think they understand the overall risks of living with coal power. After all, they have already lived their lives with coal power, and they have seen many other people do so. If the quality of life has been acceptable, the risks must be acceptable as well, if there are no alternatives that are obviously better.

On the other hand, people tend to overestimate unfamiliar risks. If you only hear about nuclear disasters (or earthquakes or hurricanes) in the news, it's easy to assume that the risks are more significant than they actually are.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by kitkat_new on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:57PM (#35782285)
but coal created a lot of jobs for normal people in the area. Dislocated people are paid a lot.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by legulere on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:45PM (#35782161)
Chernobyl alone released around the same order of magnitude of radionuclides as all coal use worldwide.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by Georgelemental on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:55PM (#35782258)
Chernobyl is a special case, with a uniquely terrible design and uniquely terrible management by a uniquely evil regime. No modern reactor has any chance for failure that catastrophic. But even taking Chernobyl into account, nuclear remains by far one of the safest forms of energy, rivaled only by solar: https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by legulere on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:27PM (#35782543)
Do you consider Fukushima also not a modern design? Do you then also follow that old reactors should be shut down? (8 reactors of the same type as Chernobyl are still running for instance)
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by scottLobster on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:40PM (#35782640)
Are you trying to sound uninformed and unworthy of respect? Those 8 reactors were retrofitted to prevent another Chernobyl. Yes not at first due to the corrupt nature of the Soviet Union, but it did occur.

Also right now there is exactly 1 confirmed death from exposure to radiation from Fukushima, and a few dozen cases of cancer, radiation burns and injury. Pretty sure coal kills more directly and indirectly in any given month.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by natmaka on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:52PM (#35783167)
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by Ekaros on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:06AM (#35784308)
And how many of those people would have been evacuated anyway for well the tsunami damage?
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by natmaka on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:12AM (#35784350)
Please read the article and its sources: those deaths are attributed to the sole part of the evacuation related to the nuclear accident. The tsunami caused ~20000 deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_an...
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by ApolloFortyNine on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @04:01PM (#35793315)
>As of 27 February 2017, the Fukushima prefecture government counted 2,129 "disaster-related deaths" in the prefecture.[21][19][22][23] This value exceeds the number that have died in Fukushima prefecture directly from the earthquake and tsunami.[24] "Disaster-related deaths" are deaths attributed to disasters and are not caused by direct physical trauma, but does not distinguish between people displaced by the nuclear disaster compared to the earthquake / tsunami. As of year 2016, among those deaths, 1,368 have been listed as "related to the nuclear power plant" according to media analysis

Looks like that 2xxx number is disaster-related deaths? And the related to the nuclear power plant is 1368.

It is a bit confusing what that exactly entails. It seems to include people who committed suicide due to the evacuation, but surely their can't have been 1300 suicides. Is it people who are assumed to have died only because they weren't at home? How do you die due to an evacuation anyways?

None of this really seems explained, unless it really is 1300 suicides.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by natmaka on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:49PM (#35797699)
> the related to the nuclear power plant

"As of year 2016" (obsolete), and "according to media analysis" (vague source).

The official number of "Disaster-related deaths" is directly tied to a "disaster condolence fund system" (families have to apply). This is discussed in: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266676572...

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by ApolloFortyNine on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:36PM (#35782612)
Fukushima power plant started construction in 1967, no one would consider that a modern design.

If it was actually possible to build a new nuclear power plant I'm sure the old ones would be replaced. If it wasn't for chernobyl plus three mile island (which released a comically low amount of radiation) maybe the west would have completed its conversion to nuclear instead of essentially pausing all construction for 30 years. But right now the options are essentially shut it down and replace with fossil fuels (wind and solar are not great providers of base loads for obvious reasons) or extend the license.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by legulere on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:07PM (#35782820)
Why should the safety of old reactors depend on new reactors being built?

Base load plus peak load is just one way to run electricity production. There is also load following for instance.

Germany replaced nuclear with renewables while also reducing both coal and fossil fuel use in general: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energiemix_Deutsch...

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by bumby on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:33AM (#35787168)
>Why should the safety of old reactors depend on new reactors being built?

From the OP: >I'm sure the old ones would be replaced.

I think their point is that the old ones are still in use (sometimes extending their life rather than replacing them with better designs) because new ones aren't allowed to be built.

It's like banning new ICE designs and then complaining about how ICE aren't more efficient.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by ApolloFortyNine on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:56PM (#35793249)
Well you're clearly pretty anti nuclear, would you allow the construction of a new reactor to replace the old?

The answer unfortunately is no, the fear mongering largely won out.

And you also seem to have forgotten the thread your in with your last statement.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by Georgelemental on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:20PM (#35782908)
The state of the art has improved since Fukushima was built. But it's not even in the same universe as Chernobyl, and reactors of that age shouldn't all be shut down, no.

Only one person died from radiation from the Fukushima accident, a tiny fraction of the total deaths from the tsunami. It's an insignificant risk compared to other forms of energy.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by Jorengarenar on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:49PM (#35782695)
You are really unfair here. The management wasn't terrible at all! That's an insult to actual terrible managements!

It was the most bizarre, horrifyingly dump, idiotic, horrible management I can imagine.

The safety systems were rising warnings, the person that decided to ignore them and ordered continuation of the test wasn't even on site!

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by scottLobster on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:30PM (#35782568)
And no one is suggesting we build Soviet RBMK reactors. Would you point to the Ford Pinto to claim that we should go back to the horse and buggy?
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by bob_theslob646 on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:01PM (#35782317)
https://nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/resources/health/health-effe...

How many people died? How many people did annually from people burning coal?How many people develop long term health effects from coal?

How many catastrophic failures of nuclear reactors have there been? What about catastrophic failures of other energy sources?

Think critically mate.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by legulere on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:31PM (#35782573)
Is safety only about death? Why are deaths in uranium mining always ignored? How much preventative measures have been and are still being taken throughout Europe because of Chernobyl and how much damage did that do? Why do nuclear proponents only compare with coal, never with renewables?
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by Georgelemental on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:25PM (#35782953)
> deaths in uranium mining

Uranium is very energy-dense (https://xkcd.com/1162/), you don't need to mine a lot of it to get a lot of energy out. So to produce the same amount of energy, there will be far fewer deaths from uranium mining compared to coal mining, or oil drilling, or even (IIRC) rare earth mining to make solar panels.

> How much preventative measures have been and are still being taken throughout Europe because of Chernobyl and how much damage did that do?

Many preventative measures are reasonable and necessary! This isn't incompatible with nuclear being safe. For example, flying is the safest form of travel, in part because there is strong safety regulation around airplanes. (That being said, a lot of the regulation around nuclear is excessive and counterproductive)

> Why do nuclear proponents only compare with coal, never with renewables?

The biggest problem with solar and wind is that they are intermittent, so alone they can't support a reliable grid. There are some other issues too (solar takes up a lot of land area, wind turbines kill millions of birds). But all technologies have their tradeoffs; I will support renewables where they make sense, as a component of a reliable grid alongside nuclear.

Geothermal is something that doesn't gen enough attention IMO. Currently, it is only viable in a few locations, but potentially with some more R&D it could become a lot more important.

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by Georgelemental on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:44PM (#35782156)
I would be fine with living right next to a nuclear power station. I have lived near a uranium enrichment factory. Far preferable to living next to a lignite coal plant, that's for sure!
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by bob_theslob646 on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:56PM (#35782273)
Can you cite any evidence for what you just said because that may be the most outrageous thing I've ever read of my life.

Living in the same city where of nuclear power plant is considered not inhabitable?

Or were you making a terrible joke about a nuclear accident?

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by lexandstuff on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:00PM (#35782312)
Here's a source from a recent Australian survey:

"...asked whether respondents agreed or disagreed with the statement "I would be comfortable living close to a nuclear power plant", only 28% agreed and 60% disagreed." [1]

The part about it being due to uninhabitable cities (referring to Chernobyl, Pripyat and Fukushima) was conjecture - I don't know people's reasons for it.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jun/18/austr...

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by elif on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:11PM (#35782401)
28% of the total population can provide full occupancy of all the areas near nuclear plants. Those ignorant or willing to live in discomfort will ease the capitalist equalizing that will naturally encourage that 28% to fill those houses.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by lexandstuff on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:18PM (#35782482)
Fair enough, but the housing prices in the area will take a huge hit while the non-supporters move out. It would be political suicide for a local government to support it.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by bumby on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:54AM (#35787415)
if housing wasn’t viewed as an investment that makes up a disproportionate amount of wealth, this wouldn’t be an issue
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by int_19h on Thursday May 04, 2023 @06:07PM (#35822797)
What happens if you ask, say, the French, who have been living next to their nuclear power plants for decades.
Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by bob_theslob646 on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:17PM (#35782464)
When you say "many" you cited people in Australia. Does that speak or is that representative, for the entire world?

Also, my opinion of Australians is slightly shifted after reading that information, but who knows how they crafted that survey. Did they compare it to living next to a coal-fired plant? I am not able to easily find the survey methodology.

Anyhow,the science is abundantly clear that there is no reason to fear living near a nuclear power plant.

"In our study, living near an NPP was not associated with any significant risk of hematologic malignancies, except for CLL/SLL, for which risk was significantly reduced."(https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijc.31116)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26638017/

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-risks...

Re:Wind farm in Germany is being dismantled to expand coal mine by bumby on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:56AM (#35787441)
Tbf, you can find a lot of other sources that show an increased risk. It’s one of those areas where we need credible experts rather than layman interpretations.