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Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by TekMol on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:14AM (#35770253)
More centralization.

This just balloons up giants which are too big to fail.

The end result as always: More money printing.

The genie was let out of the bottle in 2008 and will not be put back:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGMBASE

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by mise_en_place on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:35AM (#35770352)
In this case it's due to a combination of owning long term debt locked into 10-30 years and depositors fleeing the bank.

It's precisely the opposite, because the money printer is now a money vacuum, a lot of banks have solvency issues.

Money printing would have saved FNB.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by TekMol on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:42AM (#35770392)

    because the money printer is now a money vacuum
Depends on your definition of "now". (Related: "How Long Is the Coast of Britain?")

The printing of unprecedented amounts of money from 2008 to now created those low yields the banks are seeing. And now there was a tiny increase in yields the banks go under.

This would not have happened with a stable supply of the base currency.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:43AM (#35770399)
> would not have happened with a stable supply of the base currency

We spent millennia with examples of stable, metal currencies and bank failures. Then, like now, bankers chased risks. First Republic financed long-term Treasuries. Romans financed eastern fineries [1]. Many others blew capital on kings’ failed wars.

Booms and busts are inherent to money and credit, this is a foundational learning every industrialised non-Malthusian society learned fast and, in many cases, including our own, the hard way.

[1] https://epicenter.wcfia.harvard.edu/blog/financial-crisis-th...

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by qwytw on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:50AM (#35770770)
They weren't even exactly stable if you look at data between 1800 and the 1930s , though:

https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1#:~:t....

or even in the 18th century:

https://www.in2013dollars.com/UK-inflation

The counter-swings just created an illusion of longterm stability. But it definitely didn't feel that way for people living on the ground (of course a lot of that is down to unstable food supply and not just the monetary system. Not that it was avoidable, you can't really have a fiat currency without a stable and somewhat reliable government anyway).

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by qwytw on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:46AM (#35770750)
> This would not have happened with a stable supply of the base currency.

You wouldn't have had a stable fractional banking system prior to the 1930s anyway. So yeah, in a way you're right.

Generally financial systems are much more stable nowadays than they were under the gold standard.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:18AM (#35770279)
> end result as always: More money printing

You linked to a chart showing a 10% decrease in the monetary base from peak, even including the run-up since February.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by hospitalhusband on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:22AM (#35770299)
Climate, meet weather.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by throw_m239339 on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:39AM (#35770372)
> You linked to a chart showing a 10% decrease in the monetary base from peak, even including the run-up since February.

You should compare today's figures with 2010 figures, not the ones from a year ago.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:42AM (#35770396)
> should compare today's figures with 2010 figures, not the ones from a year ago

Nobody will argue we didn’t print money in the last decade. Per unit of GDP, we have 22% more money than we had ten years ago [1].

Implying recent bank failures are causing that to increase is false, and in some ways backwards.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=lJS

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by jarym on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:48AM (#35770430)
The amount of $ measured in terms of US GDP (also in $). That way of comparing things is fraught with issues
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:51AM (#35770453)
> amount of $ measured in terms of US GDP (also in $)

It’s convention because it cancels out a lot of noise. (Both nominal.) And there are practical reasons for a larger economy needing more money to work than a smaller one. But if you prefer, it can be calculated in various ways, all of which tell a similar story: we’ve been in a different regime for the last 1 to 3 years in which there is less money, and a regime before that since 2008 when there was a lot more money.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by TekMol on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:21AM (#35770296)
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:22AM (#35770300)
Comparing the monetary base to average temperatures makes no sense. We expect the latter to be stable long term (human-wise). We want the former to track GDP, more or less [1]. In that metric, too, the anomalous period was 2008 - 2020, with a phase change towards less money per unit of GDP since.

There are many reasonable issues with this purchase and sale. But “money printer go brr” isn’t a particularly insightful nor relevant one.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=lJS

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by TekMol on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:25AM (#35770310)
"We want" ... not sure if a vote would really turn out that way.

I think for most people having something like the gold standard seems much more plausible.

Having a flexible supply of the settlement currency is a pretty new experiment. Not even 100 years old. And it has ended in desasters around the world multiple times already.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:27AM (#35770321)
> not sure if a vote would really turn out that way

We don’t vote on individual drug approvals, either.

Some people have a broad vendetta against the Fed and fiat currency. That is fine. But shoehorning it into every discussion, even when it isn’t relevant, doesn’t advance anything. This is a bank failure being resolved with public-private participation within the FDIC’s framework with support from the OCC. There are smart things one can say about the FHLBs, TBTF and liquidity ratios. (You pointed out centralisation. That’s a smart thing to discuss!) There isn’t much relevance to the Fed and monetary base, however, unless we’re speculating on the next rate rise.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by pjc50 on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:48AM (#35770432)
The man in the street might find it plausible that asbestos and cigarettes are safe and that global warming isn't real. "Plausible" is not the same as "true", a problem which the AI people are grappling with.

Not having a flexible currency supply causes separate problems as people run out of specie. Furthermore the counterfactuals for 2008 and 2020 look .. bad.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by qwytw on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:43AM (#35770727)
> And it has ended in desasters around the world multiple times already.

Well the global economy and most national ones were in a permanent boom and bust cycle between at least the mid to late 18th century and the Great Depression.

The gold standard was never stable, just look at:

https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1#:~:t....

Just instead of steadily (well prior to 2020 anyway) going up all the time like now the worth of currencies was swinging up and down in a wildly volatile and unpredictable manner every few years..

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by emn13 on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:46AM (#35770418)
There are all kinds of differences between 2008 and now, but setting those aside - I think the genie was out of the bottle well before 2008 - it's just in 2008 everyone noticed. After all, it doesn't sound like many experts find it plausible that non intervention in 2008 was a realistic option assuming you want to avoid much worse consequences. At best, earlier intervention might have reduced the visibility and impact of symptoms.

The underlying issue is that even uninsured risks in banks must de-facto be largely covered by some central authority (whether FDIC or otherwise) otherwise the whole system is at serious risk of pretty catastrophic failure. The interaction of the lack of (formal) insurance for large deposits and the fluidity of those deposits make bank runs at the first sign of serious risk inevitable.

How important that problem is - I'm not informed enough to have an opinion on. But that problem didn't start in 2008, that's for sure. I am curious as to what actual subject matter experts think ideal solutions would be, and what haphazard lobbyist inspired patch-job we'll actually get.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:49AM (#35770443)
> are all kinds of differences between 2008 and now

One huge, positive difference between 2008 and now: owners aren’t being bailed out. Stock and bondholders in 2008 got rescued. Not this time.

In February, First Republic had a $40bn enterprise value [1]. That is largely, if not entirely, gone. (JPMorgan acquired “substantially all of the assets of First Republic Bank,” so there will still be scraps to fight over.)

[1] https://ycharts.com/companies/FRC/enterprise_value

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by AnimalMuppet on Monday May 01, 2023 @08:37AM (#35771955)
IIRC, in 2008 shareholders got wiped out at least at some institutions.

It's 15 years later, and I don't recall the details, but I'm pretty sure that at least one of the big players went down in a way that the stockholders got zero.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 01, 2023 @08:49AM (#35772069)
> IIRC, in 2008 shareholders got wiped out at least at some institutions

Yes, the banks that outright failed. But e.g. Bear Stearns got a bit of a sweetheart deal.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by _heimdall on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:27AM (#35772506)
That's mostly just a consequence of those banks being "too big to fail". In 2008, allowing the largest banks to fail and shareholders lose everything could have seriously crippled our currency itself.

Shares of those banks play a much larger role in index funds, retirement accounts, etc than First Republic or SVB. The major banks are so tightly coupled that if one fell most of the others would have, and the very debt that created our currency in the first place would have disappeared.

Whether bailing out the banks in 2008 was a net positive won't be known for a while. We're still dealing with the blowback from 2008 and we can't know whether the bailouts saved us from further pain or pushed it under the rug and made the pain worse later.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by goodluckchuck on Monday May 01, 2023 @06:42AM (#35771040)
The risk of contagion is a systemic flaw that can and should should be fixed with a change to the system. Depositors do not have any real visibility, notice, consent, etc. to what happens with their money. Rational consumers would not put their money in a back that was A) lending it out, and B) Lending it out in a risky manner.

Just like cookies on a website, banks should be required to give depositors a clear and easy way to choose whether their money will be lent out.

Will that mean less lending overall? Yes. Will that be good for the economy? Yes, because it’ll couple inputs and outputs more closely.

Moreover, depositors who do use banks to lend should be given a prospectus and information comparable to stocks.

Deposit insurance is a moral hazard. It encourages people to be reckless with where they put their money.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by lumb63 on Monday May 01, 2023 @08:38AM (#35771970)
Backing up a little, the primary role of banks in a fractional reserve system is to increase the amount of money in circulation by lending. The “opt-out” is “just hold your own money”. Signing up for a bank account while being in opposition to them lending your money is like getting a job and being upset that they expect you to work; it’s not just part of the deal, it’s the primary part of the deal.

I like the idea of banks giving consumers a prospectus, but I should point out that publicly traded banks do, every three months, in the form of a quarterly earnings statement. How many people use it as such, I’m not sure.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by unethical_ban on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:15AM (#35773064)
The primary role of a bank for me is to make my money available via a debit card virtually vs. carrying physical bills which can be more easily lost or stolen.

I understand what you're saying. It's worth noting that the needs of the depositor are below the needs of the system itself.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by lumb63 on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:44AM (#35774455)
This is one of the selling points for crypto. As a consumer, digitization of the money is about the only service most consumers care about (or accruing interest). Banking seems to me a very outdated and nearly obsoleted technology.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by xmcqdpt2 on Monday May 01, 2023 @01:04PM (#35775742)
I think you'll find that consumers care a lot about the lending side of the business. A lot of people have mortgages, lines of credit, personal loans and credit cards!
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by lumb63 on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:01PM (#35777508)
This comment made me think. Is the presence of lending an example of supply leading demand, rather than the other way around? I’ll have to read more on the history of the situation, but I don’t think anyone wants, e.g., a mortgage. They want a house and can’t afford it any other way.

In a system where mortgages didn’t exist, maybe houses would be more affordable for people.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by unethical_ban on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:23PM (#35781930)
I don't see why fractional reserve banking is the only way to lend.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by xmcqdpt2 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:47AM (#35784540)
It isn't but it's cheaper. People may not care very much about the 2% interest rates they get on their savings account, but I think they do care about having access to cheap credit.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by goodluckchuck on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:54PM (#35779000)
To back up a little further, the purpose of a bank before fractional reserve banking was to store gold and other valuables safe from theft…

Fractional reserve banking began when the banks started converting the deposits to issue loans without the depositor’s knowledge or consent… and that’s largely the way it remains.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by ineedasername on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:26AM (#35774150)
Deposit insurance is a moral hazard. It encourages people to be reckless with where they put their money.

The vast majority of the population would not have the time or ability to digest and perform a comparative analysis between countless pages of bank prospectuses. We put that effort into stocks now. Most use some variety of funds, often suggested by general guidance from 401k plans based on a vague risk tolerance and retirement goals.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by goodluckchuck on Monday May 01, 2023 @08:13PM (#35781267)
Yes, but what’s the problem? Ignorance is not a better solution. People could digest a few basic statistics like the reserve ratio of the bank. We do this with Energy Star appliances.

Ultimately I don’t care if people change their behavior, but I’m offended by the fact that I’ve opened several accounts in my life and none have clearly indicated that they don’t keep most of my money. I’ve even read a couple sets of the papers that come with an account and they didn’t seem to say anything about it.

As far as I’m concerned banking is fraud / conversion.

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by timerol on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:51PM (#35777358)
I'm curious - would you be willing to check that box if it meant a $15 fee each month? Banking services are currently largely paid for out of the interest rate differential on your account, and need to be paid for somehow. I personally would much rather have my FDIC-insured deposits get lent out than having to pay even a nominal fee.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by hgomersall on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:11PM (#35777638)
Your deposits never get lent out. This myth seems particularly sticky.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by emn13 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @06:40AM (#35785596)
It's a question of terminology - if you deposit a dollar in a bank, that adds to its reserves (the dollar), and its liabilites (the future dollar and potential interest). The bank wants to make a profit, and legal requirements mean it can invest in risky bets (such as loans) only to a certain degree - but that's still well in excess of 1-1.

In effect, your deposit is directly, causally linked to the ability of the bank to keep more interest _earning_ loans on the books; i.e. your deposit helps back those loans, and were it not for deposit insurance (assuming your account is below the limit) you would be on the hook for risks the bank took.

Your deposits are thus both necessary, and (barring FDIC) risk-carrying when it comes to the loans the bank makes. Isn't that in essence "your" deposit being lent out?

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by hgomersall on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:08AM (#35786834)
But banks are not in practice limited by reserve availability. A central plank of modern central bank dogma is control of interest rates which is significantly exercised through liquidity loans to banks in order to satisfy their Basel III obligations. That policy goal necessitates free provision of such loans. The reason deposits are desirable is because it's cheaper for the banks to borrow their liquidity from punters than from the inter bank market or from the CB. I guess in some very roundabout way what you say holds some water, but deposits certainly do not limit the ability of the bank to make loans, which is in truth limited by the availability of credit worthy borrowers.
Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by eru on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:24AM (#35773185)
The chart you linked to has downward movement as well. So it's not all 'more money printing'.

Btw, the expansion of the monetary base has a lot more to do with the Fed paying interest on excess reserves than on rescuing a few banks here and there.

See https://www.cato.org/working-paper/floored or https://www.mercatus.org/macro-musings/floors-and-corridors

Re:JPMorgan Chase Bank Assumes All the Deposits of First Rep... by tzs on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:03AM (#35773759)
> This just balloons up giants which are too big to fail

This is good. We need to get everything down to a sufficiently small number of big banks so that "too big to fail" also means "so big that even the most ardent small-government anti-regulation leave everything up to the market people in Congress are afraid to deregulate them".