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Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by yunohn on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:17AM (#35761199)
What do you think morals are?

> Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.

Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by smitty1e on Sunday April 30, 2023 @07:32AM (#35761602)
Source?

Morality seems more of a subjective call, e.g. "Thou shalt marry heterosexually ahead of procreation", than a stochastic analysis, e.g. "X percent of fatal car crashes involve blood alcohol above Y concentration."

Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by yunohn on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:02AM (#35761778)
Straight from Wikipedia, which is an objective source for such a general topic. Religious morality is a sub-category, not all of morality itself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by smitty1e on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:03PM (#35763847)
What I'm after is that much of the ethics by which our legal system operates, e.g. a BAC limit for legal driving, is divorced from moral questions such as: "Is drinking beer a sinful act?"
Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by yunohn on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:07PM (#35763889)
I think you’re gravely misguided. BAC has nothing to do with sin, it’s connected to the morality and ethics of putting your fellow citizens at risk of your impaired driving.
Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by smitty1e on Sunday April 30, 2023 @01:31PM (#35764708)
Indeed, this is the point I'm after. Glad we could get there.
Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by yunohn on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:48PM (#35765422)
My repeated point has been that morality != religious sin, rather the latter is a subset. I don’t necessarily agree with laws/taxes in this regard, but it’s important to understand where they come from.
Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by smitty1e on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:52PM (#35767975)
OK, I disagree with the "subset" point, though I yield to your majority opinion on the matter.

My argument is that we can declutter discussion by treating all "moral compass" arguments as orthogonal to an "ethical plane".

If our subjective judgements are treated as internal (booze==sin), and de-conflicted from the external, legal arguments, we'd be in better shape.

But too many are invested in the status quo to tidy up the model like that.

Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by avianlyric on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:39PM (#35765348)
It’s not a requirement for consumption taxes to driven my morality as a first order effect.

It’s entirely reasonable for law to take the moral stance that people should broadly pay for the benefits as participating in organised society, so to ensure the long term upkeep and maintenance of that organisation they derive benefits from.

At which point consumption taxes have nothing to any moral judgement about the consumption of various products, but simple calculus that the voluntary consuming those products increases the cost of running our society, and so you should pay a bit more for engaging in these activities.

But none of that is judgement on the morality of activity. I personally couldn’t give a shit what drugs you or anyone else consumes. But I don’t particularly like the idea of having pick up the bill later for an activity I didn’t participate in. So if you pay some extra taxes to cover to cost of additional healthcare, then feel free to consume whatever the hell you want.

Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by yunohn on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:46PM (#35765406)
> But I don’t particularly like the idea of having pick up the bill later for an activity I didn’t participate in.

The repeated grouping of morality/ethics into purely religion/judgement throughout this thread really bothers me. IMHO your argument is an argument of moral propriety of making people pay for others choices. You’re semantically choosing to not call it that is all.

Re:Why Are Lithium Prices Collapsing? by avianlyric on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:10PM (#35766658)
Nah I’m more than happy to agree that I’m making an argument of moral propriety. There has to be some consistent basis for forming laws, and some sort of coherent social order.

But my point is there’s a difference between moral basis for having laws and taxes, and their specific implementation. Consumption taxes are just one approach for implementing a social system build on the basis “fair contribution/usage”, or whatever we want to call it (my views on “moral” behaviour are too nuanced and confused to fit into an internet comment, so let’s just work with something simple). But the taxes themselves aren’t a direct expression of moral judgment themselves, but rather an implementation detail of a broader governing moral system that provides legitimacy to laws and the states rights to enforce them.

It might be a distinction without a difference. But if someone is going to call out consumption taxes as somehow more inherently driven by moral judgments than any other part of a system of law, then I think making the distinction is reasonable.