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Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @08:53AM (#35699783)
The same thing happens in the workplace, too. My last two jobs have had groups that adopted Notion and tried to use heaps of rules and templates and emojis that they wanted everyone to use to structure and document everything in Notion.

It turns into an exercise where the Notion document becomes the goal, rather than a tool to help get work done.

The Product Management group at my last company was the worst at this. They had hundreds of Notion pages that supposedly collected everything and show them in meetings, slide decks, and at every chance they had as proof that they were on top of things. Yet they could barely do any product management work that we needed to ship product because their whole world revolves around building Notion pages rather than building products.

The sad part was that it worked, at least for a while. Executives would praise the team for being so organized and always having so much to show in presentations. Eventually people started to realize that they were lost in the process of writing Notion docs rather than focusing on getting work done, but it took a long time.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by blakblakarak on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @09:42AM (#35700342)
We tried it where I work and had the same result - we've since gone back to boring old Redmine. I do think it's great for personal use though - I use for everything from shopping lists to dream journals (don't judge me ;) ) to 5 year plans.
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by freedomben on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @10:31AM (#35701027)
Redmine is amazing! Way underrated. https://www.redmine.org/
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by spzb on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @09:48AM (#35700420)
> It turns into an exercise where the Notion document becomes the goal, rather than a tool to help get work done.

Same, except it's Jira and Confluence. Everything has to have story points assigned to it just so we can say we did an arbitrary number of points per sprint and show a impressive looking graph in retrospectives.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by nuancebydefault on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @12:30PM (#35702755)
As long as you use Jira and Confluence to track what you are doing and make handy reference notes, they work super good.

About showing burn down chats: usually they are shown a few times in early stages of the project, but don't get any attention anymore once they start showing unwanted or erratic results.

Also story points estimations/tracking (as opposed to time in real world units) : never saw it work in practice.

Whoever says software/hardware project time schedules are 'under control' or 'predictable' is probably joking.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by Macha on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @01:08PM (#35703478)
I would argue that the performance of Jira being what it is along makes it pretty unsuitable for just taking reference notes. Our onprem hosted instance is pretty slow, which you might blame on server provisioning, except last time I used Jira cloud it was even worse with an empty instance (compared to our at least multiple million tickets instance)
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by nuancebydefault on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @01:47PM (#35704076)
Well Confluence is for the handy notes, which can grow into quality documents if you have them reviewed and updated. Personally never experienced performance issues.
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by majormajor on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @01:14PM (#35703567)
> About showing burn down chats: usually they are shown a few times in early stages of the project, but don't get any attention anymore once they start showing unwanted or erratic results.

If your management can't understand these charts - including when you get results you don't want - I think your management is failing.

E.g. if you don't realize "whoa there's a lot more ambiguity here than we expected and it's causing big delay" until the project goes sideways trying to find clarity, then you missed something big in your earlier planning and estimation.

And whether or not it was important to spend the time to try to get a more accurate estimate vs just start building should be a business-requirement and project-specific decision, but it should be a conscious one.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by huehehue on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @01:17PM (#35703601)
> Everything has to have story points assigned to it just so we can say we did an arbitrary number of points per sprint

If you have a manager that's treating N points as a target, then you just have a bad manager. Sprint points are just a signal for how over/under your estimates are on average, to help inform future planning. If someone goes on vacation, how do I know how much work the remaining team can handle? It's also a good signal for measuring the impact of team/process changes (to be clear, the idea here is post hoc analysis and not +N points as a target).

That said, how would you prefer to handle capacity planning? Points aren't perfect, but trends should stabilize over time (you can have predictability/consistency without precision). You can even map point values to ranges of time (e.g. 1 point = [2, 8] hours) if it helps.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by epolanski on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @02:33PM (#35704721)
I've never ever seen this estimation game lead to any better planning, ever.
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by huehehue on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @03:24PM (#35705385)
I can't think of any healthy team dynamic that doesn't require some form of deliverability estimates (this is not limited to engineering), and am very curious how you approach this.
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by epolanski on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @06:18PM (#35707486)
Ideally a good tech lead with a pulse of his team and stack should be able to do it alone. When estimations are crucial they can be further analyzed with more people.

It's the beaurocratic gamification aspect I despise.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by random_kris on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @07:45PM (#35708171)
Ideally a good tech lead should share stuff like that with the team to take into account opinions of team members.

Having 2 meetings. 1 for task presentation and 1 for task estimation next day is really great

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by majormajor on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @01:11PM (#35703537)
This is one of the lowest hanging fruits for generative AI in the workplace: let the language model rewrite people's notes into the structured form.
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by Spivak on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @02:02PM (#35704286)
That's why you have someone whose job is to make that Notion/Confluence/Dokku who is part designer, part technical writer. They're sometimes called company historians.

It is the only solution I've ever seen for the "documentation always gets cut" problem with SWE. Someone's whole work stream is thorough documentation and knowing everything. How features work, what customers requested them, what technical trade-offs were made and why.

I miss having one of these people every day at $dayjob. She would make reports for questions that's needed a thorough response. I asked what I thought was an innocent question about what a small kafka cluster was used for and I got back a long-ass document that outlined the whole saga, the complaints the customer had, the VP discussions, the MRs that introduced it, other things people proposed and why they were shot down, meeting notes, screenshots of the discussion on Slack. Like hot damn.

Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by asherah on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @03:38PM (#35705550)
i hadn't ever heard of this but this sounds immensely helpful. i wish this were a more common practice!
Re:People who use Notion to plan their whole lives by jen729w on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @06:10PM (#35707409)
Yes! I'm Johnny.Decimal and I'm starting to advocate for the idea of 'the Librarian' at work. You need someone to organise your stuff. That person needs the right skills -- passion, even -- to do that job.

Today that role is filled by either a) nobody or b) the lowest lackey who doesn't give a hoot about the concept.