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Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by altacc on Saturday April 22, 2023 @01:14PM (#35668761)
This sounds like a prelude to a simplistic "the models aren't accurate, so climate change probably isn't really a problem". However the problem with that is that the overwhelming majority of observations and models, many of which are far from simple and use large amounts of data, point to climate change being real, unusually rapid and anthropogenic. Using the argument that these models aren't accurate ignores the fact that even with a large margin of error, the lower bounds of climate change still result in significant negative effects for large numbers of people and ecosystems. Models have for a long time shown that the overall global temperature will rise and observations over the years have proved the models reflect reality. Are all models 100% correct with predictions? No, but the trend the models show is proven, even if there is a margin of error which is typically always acknowledged during modelling.

Questioning the accuracy as a form of dismissal raise the question of what level of accuracy you'd want before accepting the results, and what level of accuracy any countering research should have. Research like this paper also has margins of error, are often single studies or analysis and therefore aren't proven to be accurate themselves. Science evolves all the time, a large amount of the science we experience or rely on day to day cannot be fully modelled with high accuracy but we don't discount reality because the models don't match it.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by amelius on Saturday April 22, 2023 @02:01PM (#35669277)
It sounds like a very basic mistake, though. Now I wonder how well climate research is funded.
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by revelio on Sunday April 23, 2023 @11:36AM (#35677139)
It's incredibly well funded, that's part of the problem. Every time they make extreme claims their funding levels go up, because rich people and governments conclude studying the climate is the most important thing that can be done with the money.
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by kcplate on Saturday April 22, 2023 @02:04PM (#35669313)
I think the problem with the attitude of “so what if the models aren’t accurate, we should still undertake giant unpopular sacrifices because I, the expert, says so…”.is that it makes people more and more distrustful of future models that may be more accurate.

We just watched with front row seats what happens when once trusted scientific authorities rely on poor data, poor communications, and poor models. The general populace starts to distrust and reject them. This is the danger of every apocalyptic climate prediction that fails to come to pass. The desire to scare people into action only tends to push people into distrust and indifference.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by kredd on Sunday April 23, 2023 @12:21AM (#35673255)
Significant portion of population will always act against status quo even if the data is accurate to the T. Something about “don’t let perfect be enemy of the good” heavily applies to climate modeling, in my opinion. Worst case scenario, we convert to better sources of power through a ton of investment, and make general populace’s life “cleaner” anyways.
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by fwlr on Sunday April 23, 2023 @02:27AM (#35673850)
There’s always the Lizardman Constant[1], and on top of that there’s people demanding unreasonable perfection of data, sure. But I think the post you’re replying to has a good point: public opinion of “public health” has taken a significant hit in reaction to the handling of Covid, as more information came out that contradicted earlier messaging (vaccine confers immunity -> vaccine lessens symptoms, most notably). It seems prudent to acknowledge the same could happen with climate change!

1: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and...

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by kcplate on Sunday April 23, 2023 @09:00AM (#35675869)
The worse case scenario is investment in your your movement towards cleaner energy is constantly hampered by scientists and politicians making near term apocalyptic predictions based on conjecture.
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by slibhb on Saturday April 22, 2023 @02:17PM (#35669446)
> However the problem with that is that the overwhelming majority of observations and models, many of which are far from simple and use large amounts of data, point to climate change being real, unusually rapid and anthropogenic

I think climate change is a problem (not a crisis) but it's important to note that if a scientist questions climate science, he becomes a pariah. In such an environment, it's hard to know how much confidence we should have in consensus.

> Models have for a long time shown that the overall global temperature will rise and observations over the years have proved the models reflect reality. Are all models 100% correct with predictions? No, but the trend the models show is proven, even if there is a margin of error which is typically always acknowledged during modelling.

My understanding is that we observe some climate trend over N years and then select the best model proposed in the past. This is where the "oil companies knew about climate change!" accusation comes from. But it's much harder to select the model before taking the measurements and climate models have obviously performed much worse at that.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by jarenmf on Saturday April 22, 2023 @02:37PM (#35669624)
> if a scientist questions climate science, he becomes a pariah

As a climate scientists I will tell you this is untrue and a harmful legend, as climate science is mostly atmospheric physics, biology and chemistry, it's pretty much very easy to disagree with anyone if you have a good argument supported by data. If you have strong scientific arguments, it does not matter even if the whole world is against you. On the contrary, this will likely make you famous and secure your career. Scientists (at least the curios ones) love to be proven wrong.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by fooker on Sunday April 23, 2023 @01:19AM (#35673503)
> If you have strong scientific arguments, it does not matter even if the whole world is against you.

That’s a nice idealistic thing to say.

Academia has shown this to be false again and again.

Most groundbreaking ideas or arguments which go against the current wisdom get buried in the best case, and the proponents scorned and driven out of research in the worst case.

It has been like this since the beginning of organized scientific communities, which is understandable. Scientists are humans with the usual shortcomings like ego and pride.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by adammarples on Sunday April 23, 2023 @05:33AM (#35674751)
According to your logic then, science should not have been able to advance at all from the very beginning
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by slibhb on Sunday April 23, 2023 @09:54AM (#35676253)
The idealistic view of scientists as unbiased arbiters is just not true. Science advances because:

1. Some of the time, scientists behave in an objective manner

2. Theories that are correct have predictive power and are therefore useful (i.e. get results, enable new technologies) and therefore tend to win out

3. "Science advances one funeral at a time" -Max Planck

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by fooker on Sunday April 23, 2023 @01:36PM (#35678462)
There’s a cynical notion that science advances one funeral at a time, attributed to Max Planck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by revelio on Sunday April 23, 2023 @11:39AM (#35677167)
>> As a climate scientist myself, I can tell you this is untrue and a harmful legend

Other climatologists say otherwise:

https://reason.com/2017/01/04/georgia-tech-climatologist-jud...

There's also a long list of people who were listed as IPCC reviewers, who claim they pointed out serious flaws in the research, were ignored, and whose names were then put on the final report anyway.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by polygamous_bat on Sunday April 23, 2023 @02:38PM (#35679202)
I hope you do know that reason.com is a right wing think tank funded by David Koch foundation, and thus have serious conflict of interest?

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reason/

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by revelio on Sunday April 23, 2023 @03:13PM (#35679516)
1. The article is simply a summary and repetition of Judith Curry's announcement, and Curry is/was an academic climatologist.

2. Given (1) I don't really care what reason.com is, but at any rate, I think right wing think tanks are far less biased and far more reliable than universities, government agencies and left wing think tanks, so that's not a useful or convincing response. Climatology is flooded with money due to their claims of doom, so they're as biased by money and profit as it is possible to be. My experience was that their opponents are barely funded at all and object due to a belief that things labelled as scientific should actually be so.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by Acebulf on Saturday April 22, 2023 @02:54PM (#35669775)
> I think climate change is a problem (not a crisis) but it's important to note that if a scientist questions climate science, he becomes a pariah.

People who have never done science really like this idea of the general scientific community being some sort of secret society that agrees to support eachothers ideas.

If you put 5 scientists in a room, you can't get them to agree on >anything<. The idea that disagreement is enough to get you outcast from "science" is complete nonsense.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by slibhb on Saturday April 22, 2023 @02:58PM (#35669824)
I know scientists who are climate change skeptics. However, what gets published ("the consensus") isn't the same as "what scientists think".

This isn't only true in science, it's true in virtually all parts of human societies. It's hard to go against the grain and you're naive if you think doing so doesn't blight careers.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by jarenmf on Saturday April 22, 2023 @03:55PM (#35670347)
Who is preventing the skeptics from posting their arguments anonymously to arxiv for us to see how the arguments hold?
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by slibhb on Saturday April 22, 2023 @04:07PM (#35670434)
Well for one thing it's a waste of time to work on research that won't advance your career.

Also, I'm not saying "heterodox scientists have secret, bulletproof analyses to disprove climate change," I'm saying that there are significant incentives against publishing climate-crisis-skeptical research. I'm unsure how anyone can disagree with that. Acknowledging it doesn't mean denying climate change is real or accepting that its risks are exaggerated.

Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by sjducb on Sunday April 23, 2023 @12:11AM (#35673224)
If you're a climate sceptic scientist then the oil companies will give you a lot of money to do research.
Re:Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previousl... by pmichaud on Saturday April 22, 2023 @04:21PM (#35670560)
This is a pretty serious misunderstanding of the claim you're responding to. It's not that scientists in general agree about everything in general. It's that certain hot button issues become politicized in such a way that prevents real scientific skepticism / decent on those subjects in particular.