If a kid is punching and kicking them or another student they are not supposed to touch the student they are supposed to remove all of the other students and call support. Depending on the support person, some of them are unwilling to pick up and remove a student. Everyone is concerned with being sued. Admins don’t want to suspend or expel because that is a bad data point. And how good they are at their job is based on data. They don’t want to remove them from the classroom because what else do they do with that kid? And removing a child from the classroom makes the parent complain, anyway, so it is a lose, lose.
This leads to teachers feeling option-less and it only takes one child to basically hold an entire classroom hostage.
The comparison is when I was a student and those students existed but were quickly removed from the classroom, usually physically as they threw punches at the support person and anyone else within arm length.
My assertion is only to be careful with complaints on respect. All too often the folks that are complaining on it haven't done their part in giving it, either.
And I make no claims that this is a new or unique perspective. 30 years ago, I recall books and shows already touching it.
This is almost surely factual. Why do you suppose that is?
If I have anything close to insight, it is if you want respect from kids, start respecting the kids. And don't have rose colored glasses to how much respect we showed as kids. We seem to put this narrative forward that we followed rules way more closely as kids than we did. Which is unfortunate not the least because we had way fewer rules in many cases.
For instance, students cussing out teachers is a lack of respect, and has nothing to do with subservience. Students talking or distracting others while the teacher is educating also shows a lack of respect. Students bullying each other also shows a lack of respect. Again, none of these have anything to do with subservience and are reasonable behaviors to prohibit in a classroom.
On the other hand, there are many situations in education that require subservience of the student to the teacher. For instance, if the teacher asks or tells a student to stop talking during class, it is important that the student listen to them. If the teacher tells a student to complete their homework, an in-class assignment, or a test, it is again important that the student listen to the teacher. If the student does not listen, either their education or the education of their peers is hurt.
I’d be curious to hear more about what you are referring to when you say “this is a dangerous line”.
Cussing is an odd one. Don't go out of your way for disrespectful language, sure. But also don't go out of your way to be offended by the way people say things. Is like my family getting upset when they see someone with blue hair. Just, why is that a concern and somehow disrespect from them?
Further complicating this, I grew up where we viewed Bill Cosby as the epitome of respect, and Eddie Murphy as not. And yet here we are, knowing what we know today. (I also cussed like a sailor, to the point that all of my friends would actually chide me on it, yet I was a very respectful person by all other measures.)
The assignments and such is even less stable. There is no evidence that doing homework helps. There is evidence that people that can easily do homework do well. Again, maybe. Often that is evidence that people with help do well. Those without help, do not. (And I don't mean "parents that did the homework." It could be as simple as "has a stable homelife.")
For the majority of these things, though, it is a tough environment for everyone involved. And all too often worrying about it at the scenes we are talking about do very little to help or improve situations. There are as many scenes where the kids don't show respect because they weren't given respect. It is reciprocal.
So, to specifically go about the what I mean makes it dangerous. It is years and years of seeing folks say things like "if only ___ would respect authority, they wouldn't be in this situation." It can feel very true. But it is often ignoring as much as it is looking at.
I should be more specific when I say cussing. I don’t care much about students swearing. I was like you in that I was “respectful” by most measures, but by the time I was a teenager, I was swearing every sentence. I thought it was cool. That’s mostly harmless, IMO. However, I feel for my sister who reports students calling her a “fucking bitch”, “cunt”, etc., when she is in class and asks them to, e.g., not use their phones. I’m not there to offer judgment on how respectful she is or is not to students, but I assume that is an unwarranted escalation on the part of the students.
As one sibling comment pointed out, and you pointed out, there are problems that can be solved that may lead to more respect shown by both students and teachers. Education has not kept up with changes in society, and I’m sure all parties involved feel that.
For instance, phones weren’t an issue in class when I was in school, because phones didn’t exist! If they did, they had 10 digits, a #, and a * button on them. Also, education practices have failed to produce results for students. I’m sure students feel disrespected that they are having their time wasted by teachers doing assignments that don’t benefit them.
Both of the above are problems that can be identified and solved without pointing out any blame. However, maybe that’s the reason they aren’t being solved; some people are more interested in pointing a finger than solving problems.
Hard to argue phones aren't changing things. I doubt they are as instrumental as often pushed. Remember when it was common for grade schoolers to smoke? Chewing tobacco was also huge.
My gut is things are more widely visible today. And even then, I'm not clear on what has changed.
Also, as a rule, teachers do not know their subject matter these days. Whilst I do remember their knowledge being less than perfect in the past, it was not like this. I understand teacher pay is a factor, but I refuse to believe these people have even the capability of educating kids.
Luckily good teaching materials are more accessible than ever as well, it's just ... all of them are outside of school.
> Teachers cannot discipline the students, either. Doing so gets them calls from angry parents, or in trouble with the administration that got said calls.
Neither can parents discipline much, especially in public and particularly fathers. Everyone is a critic today, if you look at your own child wrong there is a call and complaint against you to DCFS or the police. It's not just teachers.
The foundational issue though is feminism, it's a long term social experiment running on live subjects before you. The results are not good.
Information doesn't move the way it used to, kids brains and attention spans are different, so maybe tying kids to chairs and lecturing them doesn't work like it used to and teachers are paying the price for it.
Not saying the teachers are to blame or that parents aren't part of the problem, just that there may be a bigger issue in play as well.
Has there ever been a time when this was not a common complaint? If there was an award for “most consistent complaint in recorded history”, I think this would win.
Teachers cannot discipline the students, either. Doing so gets them calls from angry parents, or in trouble with the administration that got said calls. The above factors cause people who want to teach to stop. It is brutal to their mental health to be disrespected constantly and be powerless to do anything about it.
I believe children are mostly reflections of their parents. If a child is not respectful, my hunch is that their parent(s) are not respectful. I’m curious to hear from parents: how do you ensure (if you do) that your children are respectful toward their teachers? How do your fellow parents do so? When I was a kid, the idea never occurred to me to be disrespectful toward teachers. I don’t think my parents ever had to tell me to be respectful toward my teachers. It came naturally, probably because I saw my parents be respectful toward my teachers. I of course saw children in my classes who weren’t, and I assume their parents were the same. I’m inclined to think something changed, though, since the disrespect sounds much more prevalent today. Or maybe I’m hearing about it more since I’m older, now.