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Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by brucethemoose2 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:56PM (#35582891)
Where is the line gonna be drawn? How much of a difference is there between low strength img2img and a "smart" Photoshop filter.

Maybe "photography" contests should be more strict, with only specific processing filters allowed.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by Pelayu on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:36PM (#35583303)
I've entered photography contests before, and the ones I entered requested the raw file from the camera as well as your final .jpg/.png as a way of proving it was you at that took the image.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by Der_Einzige on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:39PM (#35583325)
Generating camera raws is only going to be a few papers away.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by Pelayu on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:57PM (#35583498)
In regards to research I'm struggling to imagine useful applications of being able to create such raw files. Also, as it's a general term for a file containing raw sensor data, it would be different across sensors.

In any case, perhaps some kind of hardware-signed cryptography scheme on the files from the camera could be used in lieu of this development in the future.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by tecleandor on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:19PM (#35583717)
The most obvious application would be faking criminal exhibits. Fake photos prrofing something

RAW files generated "backwards" do already exist. For this, police and forensics have been using special cameras with hardware signatures for raw files for around 15 years, but Canon's and Nikon's system was broken by Elcomsoft like 12 years ago. Sony is trying something similar in their A7 IV, but I don't know how serious it is, and I think it's not as oriented to forensics as Canon and Nikon was.

https://www.elcomsoft.com/news/428.html

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/elcomsoft-claims-to...

https://m.dpreview.com/news/5658217744/sony-a7-iv-gets-anti-...

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by brucethemoose2 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:05PM (#35583570)
Synthetic dataset creation for training data?

"Editable" artificial images?

I'll admit those are stretches. Anyway, in addition to a digital signing scheme, these competitions are gonna need more editing restrictions if they want to exclude the use of diffusion models.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by chasil on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:48PM (#35583419)
The article goes on to state that the Sony competition refused to acknowledge the withdrawal.

The author traveled to the ceremony at his own expense, found that he was not allocated time to speak, then went onstage unannounced to explain his refusal, at which point all physical evidence of his work was removed from the facility, again without comment.

I agree that Sony could have saved itself trouble by requiring the raw camera footage with verifiable exif data.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by cobertos on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:40PM (#35583894)
Almost sounds like the collective decision making process of the awards organization were in denial that the industry at large is changing.

Feels dystopian that they would just, scrub the winning work from the website and physical location without comment, pretending as if it didn't happen.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by freetime2 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @05:59PM (#35585000)
I feel like the guy behaved pretty indecently, and to reward him with more attention would encourage others to behave similarly in the future, and detract from the other winners who participated in the contest in good faith.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by ImPostingOnHN on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:04AM (#35590596)
I feel like he didn't behave indecently at all, and thus everything you said which follows, is not, in fact, the case

the fact that he was able to enter at all with a non-photo is proof that Sony is in the wrong, and despite their coverup, is not, in fact, prepared to deal with "black-hat artists" in this space

when an inadequacy makes itself apparent, the decent thing to do is acknowledge it, thank anyone who helped you see it, and try to make it right – Sony did none of these things, and thus are the "indecent" ones here

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by hgsgm on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:21PM (#35583730)
What is verifiable EXIF data? The submission was simulating a 100 year old photo. There could never be verifiable EXIF data for that. Sony didn't care; they liked the creativity.

Sony problem was in not catching someone who wanted to embarrass them. There's not a good way to detect that in advance.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by chasil on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:27PM (#35583797)
The image was submitted digitally, so if it was originally antique, there would be a digitization stage, scanner or camera.

Sony makes cameras; signing the image in the exif with a public key would establish authenticity.

This event isn't likely to spur that change, but it may well come.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by brucethemoose2 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:53PM (#35583458)
That doesn't exclude the use of Stable Diffusion as an editing tool.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by Pelayu on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:02PM (#35583548)
What sort of editing did you have in mind? If you are using SD to add things to the photo for example, you would see the difference between the raw file and the .jpg you submitted?
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by brucethemoose2 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:40PM (#35583899)
Some examples:

- Changing the style of the whole photo to (for instance) make it look old and analog.

- "Enhancing" it with HDR, depth of field, focus everywhere or something like that.

- Altering exposure beyond what you could get out of a underexposed/overexposed RAW file.

- Stylizing the human subjects to make them look more attractive, more grimey or whatever

All these things could arguably be done in photoshop, but its just very labor intensive and more hit-or-miss. Hence the contest rules would have to exclude most photoshop work if they want to exclude diffusion.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by hartator on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:10PM (#35583619)
It’s already the case to add textures and patterns. Like sharpening images of the moon and its craters with AI. It’s hard to draw the line. Some phone does these AI work live now!
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by ghaff on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:22PM (#35583171)
A lot of this predates generative AI. I know someone who used to be really into photography competitions and the like and he basically got discouraged because the photos he really worked on to get perfect right out of the camera were suddenly starting to lose to digital photos that had been enhanced in Photoshop in various ways.

Photos used for editorial purposes in newspapers and magazines at least historically had pretty strict rules about manipulation generally--including the removal of distracting elements that had nothing really to do with the core "truth" of the photo. I suppose the thinking was that manipulation can quickly become a slippery slope.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by Kye on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:24PM (#35583768)
What wins photography competitions breaks assumptions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcxcGBbLIwk

You're basically putting photos in front of people who've seen it all. They're not impressed by technical perfection or what gets 90+ on 500px.

edit: It's more likely your friend was losing out to people who could take more photos and be more experimental due to not being limited by the the cost of film or delay of development. Film can't touch digital's feedback loop.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by ghaff on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:31PM (#35583836)
Probably true of a lot of things. Food, theatre, art generally... Well-executed versions of something they've seen a million times before just isn't all that interesting.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by dahfizz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @05:08PM (#35584532)
At a minimum, a photography contest should only allow photos - the output of a physical camera.

There is a big distance between filters which tweak an existing image and generating an image from nothing.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by brucethemoose2 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @06:35PM (#35585317)
Not at all... Stable Diffusion can do extremely subtle alterations. Simple things like hiding ISO noise in an image, or in a single spot.

And its literally a continuum from "leave the image 99.9% unchanged" to "change 99.9% of the image"

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by melagonster on Saturday April 15, 2023 @09:20PM (#35586369)
I trust in this part we have obvious line, picture should be a true picture.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by retrac on Saturday April 15, 2023 @11:45PM (#35587080)
What's a "true picture"?

Even in traditional film photography, you can easily get "untrue" pictures. Film is sensitive to UV and near infrared, so filters can create very unreal imagery. And multiple exposure can do all sorts of tricks. The averaging of many faces together, creating a sort of uncanny valley result, was first done in the analog, stacking aligned photos with multiple exposure.

This is generally still considered photography. Art photography, if it's any good.

One could say the key element is the artist combining actual scenes that were exposed to film or a sensor. Perhaps massaged a bit in the dark room or digitally. But the core material is exposed images from actual scenes. It's photography while that element remains dominant. But then again ... isn't that sort of what these generative AIs also do? It's all originally derived from actual photographs.

Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by melagonster on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:26AM (#35626864)
the thing in pictures should happened in real world. I sure this is the difference between pictures and painting. AI is famous in generate unreal pictures.
Re:Artist refuses prize after his AI image wins at top photo... by nextaccountic on Sunday April 16, 2023 @02:14AM (#35587707)
> How much of a difference is there between low strength img2img and a "smart" Photoshop filter.

Trouble is, his work wasn't img2img, there was no initial image as input