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Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by Waterluvian on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:28PM (#35582632)
I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this. But the toolkits first listed are all pretty poor if you care about aesthetics and UX.

It’s like making furniture with framing lumber and OSB. It’ll work fine and be durable. But it just always feels not great. They generally feel, to me, a semitone sharper than portability with 90s Java applications.

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:37PM (#35582702)
For some classes of applications, all the developers want is a 2D surface (call it a canvas if you like) to draw on and then they do everything else themselves.

This leaves several notable areas of UI/UX to address:

1. menus 2. file browsers 3. text entry 4. notification/tray integration 5. window management

These are where "the native experience" (i.e behaving according to guidelines or rules laid down by the platform controller) is really felt.

Yet they have very little to do with the "interior" (in-window) behavior of the app at all, despite being critically important.

If we're going to continue with the construction metaphor, I'd say it's more like creating a lovely house that has unusual door handles, windows that open in strange ways, and a different LED lighting temperature than you're used to.

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by Waterluvian on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:52PM (#35582865)
As you say, I think you’re right for many classes. But in other classes, apps are entirely widgets. I’m looking at the first Electron app in my quick bar: Spotify, and thinking about how to make it portable without being Web.

It’s all widgets, no canvas. If you made it in any of the above it won’t feel Spotify it’ll feel Qt or whatnot. For Linux and FOSS types this is usually fine. It’s sure fine for me. But for the vast majority of users it isn’t.

And I don’t think anyone wants to write the application natively thrice.

When it comes to “mostly canvas” applications I find myself thinking about using game engines. They’re portable and basically that: a canvas with some basic UI support.

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by throwaway290 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @12:31PM (#35591504)
Downside of game engines is lacking accessibility, I think, are there any that don’t?
Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by giantrobot on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:53PM (#35582874)
The differences aren't always surface level aesthetics. Say in a toolkit the text input widgets don't support pasting content. An app using it will behave materially different than any other on the system. Not only that it might look ok but lack functionality necessary to the user.

This is not hard to imagine since various UI frameworks have long had issues with different paste board systems on Linux.

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:04PM (#35583566)
> Say in a toolkit the text input widgets don't support pasting content.

That's a bug.

> various UI frameworks have long had issues with different paste board systems on Linux

In my experience on *nix (37 years, going back to SunOS), the paste board systems for X Window are very well defined, and the only UI frameworks that have "long had issues" with them are buggy and not widely used. Are you thinking of something in particular?

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by giantrobot on Saturday April 15, 2023 @06:43PM (#35585382)
Pasting between Xlib, GNOME, and Qt apps was a shit show for years. The situation has improved significantly since the advent of Freedesktop.org but there used to be lots of problems. It doesn't matter if a UX problem is a bug or design problem. A user doesn't control if some app decides to use some unpopular UI framework. It's a Linux-on-the-desktop problem no matter the ultimate cause of the issue.

There's still issues today on Linux with keyboard shortcuts. Some apps use Ctrl+Shift and others use only Ctrl, there's no way to know what an app uses a priori. You have to hope the shortcut is displayed in the menu and you remember it when you need to actually use it. Different frameworks have different default shortcuts for common behaviors. Accessibility for any individual app is still hit or miss, same with localization and theming. Mac and Windows users don't face anywhere near the same impedance mismatch between various first and third party applications. Those systems are far from perfect but they're usually much more consistent UX than a Linux desktop.

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday April 15, 2023 @09:04PM (#35586274)
For the sort of "creative" apps I'm interested in, kbd short cuts other than Ctrl/Cmd-[cxv] are the domain of the app, and more or less every possible combination is used. My own app has more than 400 shortcuts just when installed with no additions by the user. What the OS or other apps do is of no relevance for creative apps (except for other similar apps).
Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by bombolo on Saturday April 15, 2023 @05:32PM (#35584747)
How can they look ugly when they just use the system look by default and can be themed to look like anything at all?

Have you ever used any of them?

Re:Stop Building Closed Ecosystems by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday April 15, 2023 @06:32PM (#35585284)
> But the toolkits first listed are all pretty poor if you care about aesthetics and UX.

You think that this is pretty poor in terms of aesthetics and UX?

https://musescore.org/en/4.0

Written with Qt. For at least 3 platforms.