News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by dwyer on Monday February 06, 2012 @12:58AM (#3556368)
Hacker News double standard:

* A company like Zynga who runs a completely legal business and employ thousands of people with good wages and benefits by copying game concepts is generally considered evil.

* A torrent tracker or file locker that makes a handful of employees rich by ripping off thousands of artists, musicians and filmmakers and serving spammy aggressive popup ads shut down and are considered martyrs.

Somebody care to explain?

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by cageface on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:46AM (#3556465)
A lot of hackers view "content" as raw grist for their business mills, measured in gigabytes and intrinsically "free". Not surprisingly, many of us that have worked in industries that produce this "content" and know how much work it takes to produce are less glibly generous about piracy.

I'd vote for both as evil because I also don't see much social benefit in hooking people into clickfarming their way through mindless reward loops. But pirate sites are the lowest because by abusing internet freedoms they give censors the ammunition they need to lobby for tools that will inevitably be abused to restrict more important freedoms.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by icebraining on Monday February 06, 2012 @06:06AM (#3557021)
A lot of hackers view "content" as raw grist for their business mills, measured in gigabytes and intrinsically "free". Not surprisingly, many of us that have worked in industries that produce this "content" and know how much work it takes to produce are less glibly generous about piracy.

Or said in another way, a lot of hackers understand that in a market, value is unrelated to cost of production, while others who produce "content" don't.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by cageface on Monday February 06, 2012 @07:20AM (#3557142)
A market in which value is completely uncorrelated with cost of production is an empty market.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by CWuestefeld on Monday February 06, 2012 @09:41AM (#3557545)
Not at all.

Art, fashion, antiques, and a slew of others that I won't bother to think of, have absolutely no correlation.

Virtually every other market has only a small degree of correlation: the primary drivers are supply and demand, not underlying cost.

Can you name a market that is entirely driven by cost alone? (Note that I say "market", as opposed to a government-driven exchange)

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by cageface on Monday February 06, 2012 @10:22AM (#3557670)
Antiques that were made of high quality materials by skilled craftsmen are more expensive now for the same reasons they were originally. A tailored wool suit costs more than a t-shirt and jeans. A hand-painted painting by a skilled artist cost more than a sweatshop knockoff.

Supply is a function of profit potential. Production cost isn't the only factor but pretending it's irrelevant is ridiculous.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by patio11 on Monday February 06, 2012 @02:35AM (#3556581)
Hacker News of late has a much higher consumer Internet to producer Internet ratio than it used to.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by crystalis on Monday February 06, 2012 @02:38AM (#3556585)
A hypothetical situation where this works out:

Torrent site serves up 1000 pirated DVDs, making $20 in the process. Only 1 out of those 1000 pirates would pay the $10 required to buy a DVD [1]. Assuming as little as 2 cents of consumer value per pirated DVD, this scenario has generated $10 more income for 'businesses' and $10 more consumer surplus.

Zynga copies a game that would have had 1000 customers otherwise. They're Zynga, so they get 1500 customers and the original creators get 100. Unfortunately, this makes the game unprofitable for the original creators and the development dollars Zynga had to spend copying the game are not offset by the 600 extra players they generated. Furthermore, this game is seen as a substitutable good- no real consumer value is generated when Coke is drunk instead of Pepsi.

(Honestly, I think consumer surplus is the intuitive reason people support file lockers and not Zynga. They're probably right.)

[1] This is the only conversion rate I've seen people give actual numbers for. Citation available if requested.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by furyofantares on Monday February 06, 2012 @04:51AM (#3556842)
I don't think your Zynga numbers make any sort of sense.

You imply Zynga is able to clone a game before the original even reaches 10% of its expected sales. Even mobile and facebook games tend to make most of their money early in their life. I don't think it's possible for Zynga to identify and clone a game this quickly.

You also imply that once Zynga enters the competition, it takes 90-100% of the sales away from the original. This is enormous. Zynga does add some value to games, and it cutens them up a bit too, but you claim it's mostly substitutable. So why are 90% of the people who would have found and played the original game now choosing the Zynga game?

And finally, you imply that Zynga only attracts a marginal number of players, despite the fact that Zynga spends most of its money on marketing to attract new players.

I don't think your numbers are anywhere near the ballpark.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by emillon on Monday February 06, 2012 @04:04AM (#3556737)
> [1] This is the only conversion rate I've seen people give actual numbers for. Citation available if requested.

Please do :)

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by crystalis on Tuesday February 07, 2012 @12:52AM (#3560637)
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by noonespecial on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:52AM (#3556481)
"makes a handful of employees rich by ripping off thousands of artists, musicians and filmmakers" also applies to the companies that the file-lockers were threatening.

Legal isn't always right, and its dual.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by MrScruff on Monday February 06, 2012 @04:34AM (#3556805)
Funny, because I work in the content industry and don't regard myself as being ripped off. Box office & DVD sales pay my rent.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by pyre on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:12AM (#3556394)
The flaw in your logic is that you're treating a group of people as if they are a single person with a singular set of ideas, views and motivations.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by ahelwer on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:50AM (#3556479)
It's not a flaw so much as having too broad a scope. It is certainly the case that a sizeable subset of people here hold such views, which are in turn upheld by upvotes. When called out they should respond, not fail to appear.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by chadzawistowski on Monday February 06, 2012 @02:18AM (#3556547)
Agreed. The first example which comes to mind: not all pirate sites are centered around personal profit.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by greyish_water on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:52AM (#3556483)
Is a group of Nazis less wrong than one Nazi?
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by libcee on Monday February 06, 2012 @05:29AM (#3556928)
it's not a double standard, it's two very arguably different issues that people frequently confuse as the same. the zynga issue is closer to plagiarism, and copying is not the same thing.

people get really upset about plagiarism and see it as dishonesty or fraud, as well as theft. history is rife with good (or at least gray) works of plagiarism that people would miss, such as "make em' laugh" in "singin' in the rain," which is a complete ripoff of "be a clown" by cole porter. not a parody, a ripoff with no attribution. (porter never complained.)

still, you find a larger portion of humanity is pissed off by plagiarism, where more people think copies are copies are copies, at least they help make the author famous or rich as a kind of advertising if attribution stays intact.

plagiarism is less likely to help the author of the original, but it can sometimes. for example, i hadn't heard anything about joe satriani for about a decade until coldplay allegedly plagiarized some guitar riffs from him. i've listened to both and apparently you need to be a musician to tell. at least i couldn't tell.

i like that riffs get reused sometimes, and so i don't think it's always easy to have a black and white view about plagiarism. i've neither defended zynga nor joined in condemnation.

Re:btjunkie says goodbye by scotty79 on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:09AM (#3556391)
Because making people into addicts for profit by using inoriginal ideas is bad and enabling people to share for free is good?
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by philwelch on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:32AM (#3556437)
It's not a matter of good and evil, it's a matter of due process.
Re:btjunkie says goodbye by quaunaut on Monday February 06, 2012 @01:31AM (#3556434)
Torrent trackers or file lockers that make a handful of employees rich? Haha. Good one! Oh you're funny oh wait no you don't actually understand the economics of this at all do you