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Re:Searching for the Spirit of the Midwest by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @08:40AM (#35538696)
>Yes it can. Democracy means everyone gets a vote. We can't say it's not democracy when people don't vote the way we want them to. That's the first step down an even darker path.. If the way people are voting precludes grassroots change, then the people have spoken.

If the rulers have designed a system where change the existing rulers have not condoned is all but impossible then have they really spoken? There's a reason I compared it to a dictator that keeps getting "elected".

At what point does it become not a democracy? There isn't an obvious distinction. It's necessarily a subjective judgement call.

Surely 2023 Russia isn't a democracy despite having elections. What about 1802 United states? 1859 Georgia? There are many factors that go into it and there's isn't a simple and easy answer.

Re:Searching for the Spirit of the Midwest by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @09:04AM (#35538988)
What you're expressing a desire for is pluralism. Not necessarily democracy.

Athens was a democracy, but I'm guessing you likely would not have approved of it because it was anything but pluralistic.

You're talking about an ideological ideal, where the grassroots is as heard as the clergy. A laudable goal, but democracy is a mechanism. You use democracy to get to that ideal. But you may need more than simple democracy. You may need a rule separating church from state to stop what happened in the Commonwealth. Completely non-democratic, because you're precluding people from voting for certain people, but it's protecting pluralism, and pluralist thoughts and ideas. Of course that rule does you no good if people just ignore said rules, but that's another discussion.

Re:Searching for the Spirit of the Midwest by rayiner on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @09:57AM (#35539748)
> If the rulers have designed a system where change the existing rulers have not condoned is all but impossible then have they really spoken? There's a reason I compared it to a dictator that keeps getting "elected".

I don’t think you’ve established that the Massachusetts Bay colony had a system that prevented change that wasn’t condoned by the existing rulers. I would argue it had a system of enforced social consensus that could change (and did change) as the consensus changed.

“Dictators” come in two varieties. One is someone like Putin, who enforces policies the majority may or may not support. But another is someone like Lee Kuan Yew, who presides over a consensus-oriented society that keeps getting elected because the consensus supports the direction of the country. The latter is still a democracy, and in a way a more perfect democracy. The authoritarian element serves not to oppress the majority, but to overcome the heckler’s veto and allow the government to actually do what the majority wants.

And, of course, the structure of power in the Massachusetts bay colony was much more distributed and democratic than Singapore. It was a sort of collective authoritarianism rather than top down authoritarianism.