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Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by mschuster91 on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:33AM (#35420315)
> All these talks about Starlink -> Remember it's a bandaid solution to your governments poor planning and infrastructure rollout of a core utility / service.

Partially. The thing is, the US is so unbelievably huge that it is economically infeasible to serve extremely rural areas with high-speed wired (i.e. fiber, DSL) or wireless (microwave, 4G/5G phone) internet, even with massive government subsidies - and that applies for other large-area countries such as Germany or Australia as well.

Starlink completely changes the equations there as (for the user) no investment is required other than getting a terminal, and for anything mobile (sea ships, RVs, emergency services) it blows the competition from geostationary satellites completely away.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by lstamour on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:56AM (#35420491)
Yes, the US is huge, but if an area can get power, we should be able to rollout fibre along the same routes. It just takes a bit of work.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by pengaru on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:51AM (#35420897)
Starlink is delivering internet to otherwise off-grid homes... Solar+battery tech has made power lines not only unnecessary, but in some states arguably not worth the fire risk anymore.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by mschuster91 on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:01AM (#35422039)
> Solar+battery tech has made power lines not only unnecessary, but in some states arguably not worth the fire risk anymore.

Power lines aren't an inherent fire risk. Unmaintained power lines, however, are.

Primarily, you need to maintain clearance from bushes and trees.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by msh on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:28AM (#35423172)
Or bury the cables.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by mschuster91 on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:28AM (#35424148)
Burying high voltage transmission cables is extremely expensive [1] and usually only done when there is no other choice (such as being in an urban environment, near airports and the likes) as the loss due to capacitance is far greater than on poles.

The exception to the "usually only" is, once again, our beloved "german redneck" government in Bavaria who insisted that the new North-South line Südlink got buried on Bavarian soil to quash local NIMBY resistance [2] - at the price of taking ages longer to build and costing ~8x the amount of pole-run lines.

[1] see page 64, https://www.amprion.net/Dokumente/Dialog/Downloads/Studien/E...

[2] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/energiewende-warum-erdkab...

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by msh on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @02:49AM (#35435993)
I think the comment I replied to was referring to normal powerlines for households. Individual solar+batteries is not going to replace high voltage lines.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by pengaru on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:41PM (#35428083)
"This shirt is dry-clean only, which means it's dirty" - Mitch Hedberg
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by ejb999 on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:30AM (#35421729)
should read 'a lot of work' and 'a lot of money'. In my own little town, when we (residents) voted to pay for a municipal internet, the residents had to pay to replace close to 50% of the utility owned poles in order to gain access to those poles to run fiber.

and due to the way the laws are written, we had to pay to have an engineer prescribe what work needed to be done to each pole - up to and including replacing it - then submit plans to the utilities, and then pay the utilities to pay 'their' engineer to do the same study - and then when it was agreed that a pole needed to be replaced, we had to pay the full cost of replacing it, and then when the work was done, the utility still owned the pole and rented it back to us for a yearly fee - repeat several hundred times.

Several million dollars for about 500 households.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by chatmasta on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:50AM (#35422624)
Generally speaking, what is the cost differential between hanging wires and digging wires? I would imagine that in rural areas, underground wires require less maintainence since you don't need to monitor them for fallen trees, brush overgrowth, etc. But at the same time I would guess the installation costs are higher? Maybe? Surely avoiding utility poles saves money.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by mschuster91 on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:16AM (#35423949)
> Generally speaking, what is the cost differential between hanging wires and digging wires?

Orders of magnitude. I actually once worked in construction, specifically in trench digging for German Telekom.

Putting up poles is easy, drill a hole in the ground for the pole, put the pole in, string a fiber on it, done. Even cheaper if you already have poles, all you need there is a truck with a lift. Downside is, unless you own the poles, you have to rent them from the local utility and some of these charge extortion rates for third parties. And there are always drunkards or people with shoddy cars taking down entire series of poles, not to mention adverse weather events and vandals taking pot shots. Phone and electricity lines are easy to fix, you can probably train apes to do that, but splicing fiber still involves specialists.

Trench digging is a whole different beast: you need to pull permits, dig the trench, hope you don't hit something else that's buried, deal with bad soil (sometimes straight out rock) or shit like WW2 bombs, lay down your cable, bury the cable in a first layer of fine sand, place a warning band, bury and fill up that with the coarse soil you removed, restore asphalt/plaster where needed... it takes weeks and multiple dedicated crews - usually you have one crew that deals with cutting up and removing asphalt, one that deals with placing and removing anti-traffic barriers, one with doing the actual dig and backfill, one that runs the cable, and one that restores surface.

There is a third way however, it's virtually "underground poles" - earth displacement hammers. These "rockets" can shoot up to 70m through the soil in one go. Nice shit but needs the right soil to operate and it will cut through anything already buried, including solid water and wastewater mains.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by chatmasta on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:48AM (#35425792)
Thanks for the detailed reply!

Does any of this calculus change when you're talking about really rural areas, like in the desert of Australia? My guess is that would mean higher cost of sending someone out to fix a pole (point against poles), but also lower likelihood of running into existing infrastructure (point in favor of digging).

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by mschuster91 on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:54PM (#35427222)
No idea to be honest.

For power at least, running it buried is no good idea at all because capacitive losses are larger, so at least as long as an area has a grid connection it makes sense to "dual use" the already existing poles.

Based on popular memes I can imagine, especially in Australia, that it might not be a good idea to bury lines in the open desert because you will get animals burrowing and chewing through the cables.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by yencabulator on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:16PM (#35428773)
The problem with that is that the power lines were laid down some 30+ years ago, and a new digging project is not cost-efficient. Laying fiber with other utilities should happen in every new development, but that only helps new developments.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by iggldiggl on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:13AM (#35420586)
> other large-area countries such as Germany or Australia as well

Putting Germany in the same category as Australia or the US seems a bit weird when the former two have truly continental dimensions whereas Germany is a bit smaller than California, although there's an interesting twist: Going by population-weighted density, Australia definitively comes out ahead and even the US is somewhat denser than Germany in that regard.

Though on the other hand the United Kingdom is much denser population-weighted-wise than all three of them, and yet from what I've gathered it's no perfect shining example of highspeed broadband rollout either…

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by rkangel on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:42AM (#35420831)
The UK was a bit slow to get going but is going in the right direction at a reasonable pace now. Openreach has been doing a rollout covering most people and the DCMS voucher scheme is funding independents to fill in the gaps.

I believe there will still be a rural segment relying on cellular for a while yet, but it's a shrinking minority.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by martinald on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:00AM (#35421470)
Most of the altnets are not government funded - there was a ridiculous amount of money put in them from the low interest rate period, many many billions. I very much doubt they will get a good return given the crazy level of overbuild going on. I have now 4 separate infrastructure-wise FTTH networks available to me in my London apartment.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by rkangel on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:50AM (#35421907)
I believe (without supporting data) that most altnets that are expanding coverage to people with poor broadband are government funded. The economics in London are quite different than that of a rural village.
Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by martinald on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:08AM (#35422110)
The vast majority aren't govt funded, the £5bn gigabit scheme is just getting going. Some may be in the future.

Economics aren't actually that different for villages (very rural single dwellings are though of course). Most villages of say 1k ppl already have fibre going to them (for VDSL cabinets), so they can buy the backhaul from Openreach.

Then it's a case of adding the actual fibre which they can use existing telegraph poles for.

There isn't really a huge difference in economics between urban suburbs and villages.

London is actually not as cheap as you'd think, because a lot of properties are apartments and that requires expensive wayleave agreements to be negotiated with the freeholder. This has significantly increased the cost, as many freeholders don't care and don't respond or want a lot of money for the permission, meaning you have to dig up the street regardless and miss a lot of properties and hope they can be added later.

Plus the cost and complexity of closing roads/streets is much higher in London than other areas.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by martinald on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:58AM (#35421456)
The UK took a different approach to most other countries; and IMO was the correct one. Something like 98% of properties could get at least 30meg (via VDSL2, actually more likely to be closer to 80mbit) down, and this has been the case for nearly a decade. 50% of homes have always been able to get much faster speeds via DOCSIS cable from VM (though I will caveat with that that until VM enabled DOCSIS3.1 across their network recently it could be very hit and miss congestion wise).

In the past few years though there has been an explosion in FTTH build. 75% properties can get gigabit service now which is increasing by around about 1% every month.

The priority a decade ago really was on getting the entire country up to 'usable' internet speeds, rather than having a lot of FTTH in some areas and then very slow DSL in many other areas. Only 0.35% of UK properties are below 2mbit/sec down now (unusable), which doesn't include 4G/5G coverage, so in reality it's likely only 1 in 1000 households have utterly terrible connectivity.

So while the UK doesn't rank top of the list of median download speeds it is far less likely you are going to have bad connectivity, which IMO is a greater priority than raw download speeds.

Very few people actually need more than say 100mbit/sec day to day. It's actually hard to get gigabit around the house; most powerline adaptors and wifi solutions top out around 300mbit/sec in my experience, so unless you have ethernet in your house (very rare), the limiting factor is now on in home connectivity, not the external ISP.

Re:Starlink internet is going from rural savior to unreliabl... by olyjohn on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:24PM (#35429848)
Somehow we managed to get power and POTS lines to pretty much everybody. Hell, the 2700 foot mountain peak behind my house has power run to it. This bullshit that we can't run fiber or some other networking to every house.

It's not that it's economically infeasible. It's that it's just not as profitable for the ISPs as running a smaller, closer network in a populated area. So they won't do it. Why would they care about covering a huge area that doesn't make as much money? All they care about is money over all else.