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Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by yieldcrv on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:46PM (#35350439)
One interesting thing is that properly run crypto custodians don't make the news, are 100% collateralized and can withstand 100% withdrawals in an orderly fashion. Many people in the crypto space could attest to that from various crowdfunds that distributed everything fine, or exchanges that told people to withdraw, or wound down.

In comparison, every bank in existence would have trouble with this.

Its strange that the high profile mismanaged companies that happened to be dealing in crypto are influencing this kind of exclusion from Federal agencies now. But its also validating that these accounts that are moving will be handled with care, and whatever crypto service those deposits are supporting will most likely be able to function fine. Assuming these were predominantly US-based stablecoins. (Circle’s USDC used to bank there)

Leveraged illiquid organizations with losses cannot withstand a collateral call. Whether that's a bank or a crypto exchange. Alternatives that remove or prohibit the leverage would be great.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by anonporridge on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:48PM (#35351027)
> Alternatives that remove or prohibit the leverage would be great.

Fun fact, the Fed just denied chartering a new crypto focused bank, Custodia, that was planning to keep not just 100%, but 108% of customer cash on hand, thereby foregoing insurance, and make money from fees instead of lending customer money like a typical bank.

> The Fed’s eviscerating explanation for its denial of Custodia cites the crypto bank’s decision not to insure its deposits – instead, the bank proposed to be fully capitalized, holding $1.08 in cash for every dollar deposited by customers – which the FRB said could increase Custodia’s risk of runs and contagion.

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/03/24/federal-reserve-s...

I suspect they aren't talking about runs and contagions on Custodia, but runs and contagions on all other banks if Custodia were allowed to exist. You can't have one bank totally safe from bank runs in an environment where every other bank keeps less than 10% of your cash on reserve. This breaks the system. Either everyone has to be fractional reserve, or no one can be.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by Lazare on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:32PM (#35351501)
> You can't have one bank totally safe from bank runs in an environment where every other bank keeps less than 10% of your cash on reserve. This breaks the system. Either everyone has to be fractional reserve, or no one can be.

That's a somewhat absurd assertion. There's nothing about paying a bank a fee to keep your cash in a safe deposit box which is 1) novel 2) attractive or 3) at odds with a large system of fractional reserve banking.

"You can pay some oddball special purpose depository institution in Wyoming to hold onto your money for you, but they're a bit dodgy and have a bunch of weird ties to crypto. And if they lose it, it's not insured by FDIC. Or you can put it in JP Morgan, and they'll pay you interest, and balances up to $250k are insured by FDIC, although realistically JP Morgan is very, very much too big to be allowed to fail, so the odds of those limits very relevant is almost precisely nil."

If that choice seems at all tricky to you, much less if your answer is "Custodia", you need to realise what an incredibly tiny minority that places you in.

Now, what is a threat to the banking system are narrow banks; for more on that see, eg, Matt Levine a few years ago: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-08/the-fe...

The Fed was pretty clear that they were refusing to allow this business model because it was, in part, too safe. :)

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by tintweezl on Saturday April 01, 2023 @12:27PM (#35401545)
A way to do it, not saying this is their model I haven't looked into Custodia at all. But just for the sake of argument, would be to start out capitalized with X amount of cash which would allow 12.5X in deposits to be fully covered. As fees are generated and/or stock issued and sold, more deposits could be accepted. If this model were competing with traditional 10% margin banks, it might well be supported by stockholders due to its ability to withstand runs a priori.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by Lazare on Friday April 07, 2023 @01:41AM (#35478444)
Again though - let's say you do that, and then it turns out that someone has stolen a bunch of the cash - enough to burn through the overcapitalisation.

If the bank isn't insured, then depositors end up taking losses, which means that - certainly for people with less than $250k of deposits - this "safe" bank is strictly less safe than a traditional bank. (And realistically, almost certainly less safe for large depsositors too.) So why would you pay money for a strictly inferior experience as a depositor when a traditional bank would pay you?

And if the bank is insured, then you've got to cover the insurance fees out of the fees you collect from depositors. And the insurance is presumably either FDIC, or something which is some mixture or less generous and/or more risky (FDIC is backstopped by the US government; Joe's Discount Deposit Insurance Agency...isn't.). But even in the best case it's FDIC, in which case...what's the point? You're exactly as safe as a traditional bank, except you're refusing to make loans, so you have to charge your depositors fees.

> If this model were competing with traditional 10% margin banks, it might well be supported by stockholders due to its ability to withstand runs a priori.

It is true that while these models have no benefit to depositors, they nominally benefit shareholders, we are going to be wiped out in fewer cases. (Note, though, that a bank with this model can't neccessarilly withstand runs. Let's say a false rumour sweeps through that one of these banks has had money stolen from the vaults. People correctly realise that if this is true, and they're the last ones to withdraw money, there will be nothing left for them, so the race to withdraw first. Unlike a traditional bank, in this case all the deposits can be returned, but now you've got a bank with branches and staff but no depositors and thus no revenue. And the panicked depositors who pulled their money out and put it in some other bank will have no incentive to bring it back now that you've proven you could cover the deposits. Bankruptcy is likely inevitable at this point.)

But in any case, sure, given the same risk adjusted return, it's rational to always prefer equity in something like Custodia than a traditional bank! But since there's no benefit to depositors, there's no way a bank could make an equivalent return. And while plenty of investors do want low risk, low return investments, it's hard to imagine any of them taking a flyer on something like Custodia, which is likely to be the exact opposite of that.

None of this actually works.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by kasey_junk on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:35PM (#35351539)
Narrow banks are only protected from credit and interest rate risk. Operational risk is still a concern and one that brings down many traditional banks.

If a manager runs off with 9% of the funds, or if other liabilities cause the bank to be insolvent a bank run is still possible and an orderly receivership would be needed to ensure that depositors were paid out before other creditors.

Deposit insurance is one of the mechanisms that the banking system use to pay out depositors swiftly (usually next business day after receivership). Traditional bankruptcy proceedings could leave depositors waiting for years for their funds, which is a reasonable risk to be concerned about.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by zarzavat on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:52PM (#35352215)
Is there no organizational structure that can solve this? For example, have two entities: a backend entity for deposits (a trust), and frontend entity for the day-to-day administration of bank activities, such as marketing etc.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by gerad on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:46PM (#35351633)
How do they keep $1.08 for every $1 deposited? Do they have some sort of magic money printing machine? Or do I deposit a dollar and only get ~$0.92 in my account? If the latter, that seems like a pretty bad deal.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by lxgr on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:49PM (#35351657)
I suppose the 8 cents could be shareholder capital? It's a pretty unclear why anybody would want to be a shareholder, though.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by unmole on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @02:05AM (#35353245)
> It's a pretty unclear why anybody would want to be a shareholder, though.

Yeah. It doesn't sound like a great idea. Sure, the bank can charge fees for maintaining accounts. But what do you do if you suddenly have a large influx of deposits? To maintain the 108% ratio you'd have to raise additional capital, fine. But what happens when deposits fall? Presumably that would reduce the fees collected and thereby reduce earnings per share with no feasible way getting out of the situation.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by UncleMeat on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @08:15AM (#35356085)
Especially given that you’d need to be an interesting person to choose to keep your cash in a bank account that charges a fee rather than pays interest in todays world.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by rrobukef on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @08:25AM (#35356207)
""Due to a larger than expected number of deposits we are obligated to introduce an 8% increase deposit limit fee.""
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by lxgr on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @01:20PM (#35360291)
I suppose they could make holding stock mandatory too…?
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by lxgr on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:42PM (#35351599)
Serious question: How does a bank keep "cash on hand"? Was the plan to keep all USD deposits in Fed balances?

> I suspect they aren't talking about runs and contagions on Custodia, but runs and contagions on all other banks if Custodia were allowed to exist. You can't have one bank totally safe from bank runs in an environment where every other bank keeps less than 10% of your cash on reserve. This breaks the system. Either everyone has to be fractional reserve, or no one can be.

Why? As long as my bank pays more interest on my (insured) deposits than a hypothetical full-reserve alternative, why would I switch to them? Why would anybody (below FDIC limits)?

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by mike_d on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:49PM (#35352186)
> Serious question: How does a bank keep "cash on hand"? Was the plan to keep all USD deposits in Fed balances?

Banks keep cash on hand inside vaults, on deposit at their local Federal Reserve Bank, "in transit" (stored at an armored car company), or in accounts at correspondent institutions internationally (primarily for settling debits and credits on international wires).

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by lxgr on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:09AM (#35352395)
The only one of these that makes sense is a Fed balance (as it is not only free but even pays interest), but the Fed does not seem to be a fan of the idea [1].

Cash in vaults has negative yield (the vault itself isn't free, nor is insurance for it), and if you don't like fractional reserve banking and/or counterparty risk, foreign correspondent banks don't really seem like a good way to eliminate it either.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-08/the-fe...

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by mike_d on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:52PM (#35362429)
I'm not sure what you are criticizing specifically, I just answered the question of how banks hold cash.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by lxgr on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:59PM (#35365755)
Ah, yes, for regular banks that makes total sense – I was just outlining why neither of these options would be realistic for a full-reserve bank as mentioned by GPs.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by IAmGraydon on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:05PM (#35351217)
Fractional reserve allows banks to return some of their gains to the customer via interest. Does Custodia do that? If not, it's clear that they can both exist in the same market as they both offer different levels of risk and return. If Custodia were to pay interest with no risk (which is impossible), then yes, that would change the market.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by Lazare on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:35PM (#35351537)
Custodia would not have paid interest, and indeed, that's impossible. Functionally, Custodia was offering a "we'll park your cash in a safety deposit box in exchange for a fee" service, except offered by a dodgy outfit with a lot of crypto links.

Now narrow banks - as proposed by, among others, TNB USA - would be effectively entirely safe and could pay interest. Efforts to set one up were shut down by the Fed because they would, in fact, be too attractive compared to traditional banks. See, eg, https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-08/the-fe...

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by koolba on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:26PM (#35351432)
I’d rather have my money backed by someone with nukes and a printing press than held over collateralized by one party.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by anonporridge on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:30PM (#35351471)
You have that privilege as an individual likely holding much less than $250,000 in cash at any time, but large institutions holding millions in cash don't, as the big customers of SVB almost found out before the Fed did their "surprise, we'll actually ensure 100% of everyone's money in this super special case, but just the one time ;)"
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by coffeebeqn on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:37PM (#35351551)
The solution should be fully insured up to any amount Fed bank accounts. Not more crypto nonsense that’ll blow up in a few years once the owners realize they could be making more easy money
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by SideQuark on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:48AM (#35354811)
So if people suddenly put 1 trillion in the bank magically makes up 8% of that out of nowhere?

Yeah, it's an absurd claim and the Fed is correct in denying it. It's welcome to exist somewhere people will believe it has magic money printing mechanisms.

Heck, if it worked, the bank could put in $1m, suddenly have $1.08m, invest that in the same money magic mill repeatedly, and soon have all the money it wanted.

All this on the "promise" that nothing will go bad.... Sorry, the purpose of insurance is to share volatility, and it works quite well. The purpose of claims like Custodia is making is to skirt regulations that exist for solid, historically demonstrated, reasons, so they can play loose with people's money.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by matt_kantor on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @10:56AM (#35358195)
I know nothing about Custodia, but I'd guess they either wouldn't accept your deposit or would charge an 8% fee on it.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by SpaghettiCthulu on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:02AM (#35358285)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think the point is that there would be fees to ensure that they always have an extra $0.08 on hand for every $1 you put in.

Not sure what that would look like. Maybe a fee on every deposit?

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by dragontamer on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:50AM (#35387140)
Maybe the details of how it worked were absurd and unworkable and the FDIC shit it down.

Occam's razor.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by rippercushions on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:53PM (#35351083)
> One interesting thing is that properly run crypto custodians don't make the news, are 100% collateralized and can withstand 100% withdrawals in an orderly fashion.

Ah, the mythical "properly run crypto custodian". Does such a fantastic beast actually exist?

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by kirbypineapple on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:45PM (#35351617)
Anchorage, Finoa, Copper, Gemini, Coinbase Custody, Fidelity...the list goes on.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by everfree on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:52PM (#35352218)
Circle and Paxos are big players in custody, too.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by keithalewis on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:49PM (#35351656)
Just ask P. T. Barnum.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by SturgeonsLaw on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:08PM (#35351249)
I cashed out back in 2021 but back before that I used to hold some crypto assets on Nexo. I don't have any inside knowledge of their operations, but they always seemed to take compliance and overcollateralisation more seriously than others, and they have certainly weathered the storms.

I'm purely in tradfi investments now because, well, look at crypto..

Honestly I would expect the market to be won by an exchange that plays by the rules. The dodgy ones will outcompete in the short term, but they are prone to instant and complete destruction in a way that the well run ones aren't. Additionally, it's clear as day that regulation is coming, so those exchanges who are already compliant will have an advantage.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by paxys on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:14PM (#35351294)
Nexo settles federal and state regulatory lawsuits for $45M (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-19/crypto-le...)

Nexo pulls out of US market (https://financefeeds.com/nexo-cease-its-business-operations-...)

So yeah...

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by mhluongo on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:31PM (#35351483)
Hm, none of this is about fractional reserve, right? So the OP's point stands?
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by rippercushions on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @01:07AM (#35352880)
I was expecting Coinbase to come out ahead here, but they're getting stomped on by the SEC and they're managing to lose hundreds of millions a quarter. Gemini has also been charged due to their involvement with the Genesis staking ponzi. Who's left?
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by mhluongo on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:30PM (#35351474)
BitGo seems to have done fine after all these years.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by chollida1 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:45PM (#35350998)
> One interesting thing is that properly run crypto custodians don't make the news, are 100% collateralized and can withstand 100% withdrawals in an orderly fashion. Many people in the crypto space could attest to that from various crowdfunds that distributed everything fine, or exchanges that told people to withdraw, or wound down.

This is no different than any hedge funds prime brokerage, which is the more appropriate comparison.

Both can lend out the securities that they hold but both should be able to call back and make their depositors whole.

Crypto has nothing to do with this as far as I can tell.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by bmitc on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:04AM (#35352334)
> One interesting thing is that properly run crypto custodians don't make the news, are 100% collateralized and can withstand 100% withdrawals in an orderly fashion.

Which crypto custodians are those?

> In comparison, every bank in existence would have trouble with this.

That isn't true. Schwab just announced that they can cover 100% of bank deposits without selling a single security.

https://www.financialadvisoriq.com/c/3995094/511764/schwab_l...

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by panarky on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:29AM (#35352587)
> without selling a single security

Why sell a security that's only worth 74 cents on the dollar when you can use it as collateral to borrow 100 cents on the dollar, and if you can't pay back the loan then the public will bail your ass out?

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by medellin on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:09AM (#35352396)
So the one cool thing with crypto is that you can actually verify it. Hopefully proof of reserve will become a requirement in the future to operate an exchange
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by bmitc on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @01:56AM (#35353187)
Schwab is a brokerage in addition to a bank. They are scrutinized infinitely more than any crypto exchange I known of.

Most crypto statements can be suffixed with "in theory".

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by medellin on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:28AM (#35358661)
Kraken is the only that I currently know of but i think the process for it could be improved still https://www.kraken.com/proof-of-reserves
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:12PM (#35351834)
> properly run crypto custodians don't make the news, are 100% collateralized and can withstand 100% withdrawals in an orderly fashion

This is all properly-run custodians. They don’t make the news because they shouldn’t. Institutions demanded custody for crypto because they wanted the safety traditional custodians provide.

In the old days, CFOs were trained on sweeping cash across FDIC-insured accounts and custodying Treasuries and the like. Apparently, that is now obsolete.

Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by legulere on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:14AM (#35352448)
Crypto coins are securities. If you hold securities at your bank, they are not loaning them out and they have zero problems transferring all of them away.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by stefan_ on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:58PM (#35351133)
Oh! I know this one! You see, because in crypto you can just keep billions in a flash stick, the properly run crypto custodians 100% collateralized are just.. all of us! Keeping the crypto with us, because putting it with some kind of "custodian" utterly defeats the original purpose.
Re:U.S. FDIC tells Signature crypto clients to close account... by kasey_junk on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:24PM (#35350795)
You are comparing apples to oranges. Many banks offer custody services which are off balance sheet for them. That is they don’t count as assets or liabilities because there is no use of the custodial securities by the bank.

The big difference is that you pay for the privilege of using a banks custody services. That’s why most people don’t use them for cash, it’s equivalent to putting cash in a safe deposit box, it depreciates even in deflationary times.

Signatures crypto clients were not doing that. They were loaning money to the bank in order to achieve yield. No matter who it is you loan money to, you have counterparty risk, banks just happen to be one of the most regulated debtors in the world and depositors have unprecedented creditor rights.

No crypto firms have that same level of security.