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Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by HDMI_Cable on Monday March 27, 2023 @03:13PM (#35331005)
It's really interesting to see just how small that kingdom is; that would be the size of a county or department today. I wonder if all of these areas had kingdoms that small, each bordering one another, slowly coalescing into ever-larger kingdoms and polities until today.
Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by schiffern on Monday March 27, 2023 @05:18PM (#35332795)
It's been argued that countries/empires are naturally limited to about 1 month travel time from the capitol city.[0] In this view, the Roman Empire could grow so big mostly because the Roman roads were so superior!

This would explain the small size of Bronze Age countries. As transport technology gradually improves, we'd expect the size of countries to enlarge.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34275668

Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by frozencell on Monday March 27, 2023 @06:15PM (#35333510)
Wasn't there an existing road network in Europe before the Romans?
Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by schiffern on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:40AM (#35335983)
Of course, but Roman roads were far superior. They were more durable (especially for heavy traffic necessary for commerce or supplying an army), straighter, had good drainage, and they linked together to form a complete network.[0]

Earlier paved roads do exist,[1] but (for economics) this was only done sporadically between certain settlements with high traffic between them. Part of the genius of the Roman road network was the system of bureaucracy and taxation to pay for them. This meant that a traveller (or army) could rely on the existence of a continuous, high-quality road linking distant locations.

[0] http://engineeringrome.org/ancient-roman-roads-and-their-inf...

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/mar/15/britannia-ro...

Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by HDMI_Cable on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:46AM (#35336834)
That makes sense, except in the case of colonial empires. Maybe since those empires were fairly diffuse and tended to be ruled from local sources of power (e.g. Calcutta for British India), they were still only 1 month away?

And, it seems that this kingdom was much smaller than what one could even walk in 1 month, even if there were no roads. 30km x 25km could easily be walked in a day by a relatively fit person at a reasonable pace. So maybe it isn't just travel time, but things like whether the state has enough power to prevent banditry (correlated with distance from capital) or distance-as-measured-by-armies-and-tax-collectors.

Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by dogma1138 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:25AM (#35337070)
I think you’ll find 25-30km a day is very optimistic once you need to account for people having to make and break camp and forage for supplies along the way too and you need daylight for that.

Those distances might be doable within the developed areas of an empire when you are moving between established settlements or way points with established infrastructure but not when there is no where to rest and no where to eat.

Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by medstrom on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:13AM (#35337358)
Have you hiked off-road with backpack? Many are exhausted after 15km, and that's with good shoes and good backpacks.

To make it worse, a distance you can do in 1 day isn't the distance you can do every day for weeks, which has to be less. And it's always possible someone pulls an ankle or the rain comes, which will further lengthen the trip.

Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by schiffern on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:47AM (#35339212)
>this kingdom was much smaller

I believe the argument was that countries couldn't be larger than 1 month travel time. It's a maximum size limit, not a minimum.

Also as others have pointed out, I think you'd be surprised how difficult and slow it is to carry heavy army-supplying loads over a winding network of unimproved trails that periodically get flooded out or turn to mud, all while being assailed by bandits and toll collectors. Travel in that era was not only slow and expensive, but risky.

Re:Europe’s oldest map shows tiny Bronze Age kingdom by dalkvist on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @04:06PM (#35362677)
Army movement is mostly limited by food, see https://acoup.blog/2022/07/15/collections-logistics-how-did-...