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Re:The Undeniable Street View by cpa on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:36AM (#35313804)
Very smart people join cults all the time, and it's quite well understood that you don't get them to leave a cult by showing them how irrational it is.
Re:The Undeniable Street View by MichaelZuo on Sunday March 26, 2023 @09:18AM (#35314112)
I think the parent is saying that ipso facto joining a cult means that they weren't actually 'very smart', only in appearance.
Re:The Undeniable Street View by hnarn on Sunday March 26, 2023 @09:23AM (#35314161)
At least I think it might be a good idea to question what we individually mean by "intelligent" or "very smart" when we see people that we think harbor these traits behaving in a way that we strongly dislike. The definition of intelligence is not a completely uncontroversial subject.
Re:The Undeniable Street View by akimball on Sunday March 26, 2023 @09:45AM (#35314386)
As is often said of GPT.
Re:The Undeniable Street View by MichaelZuo on Sunday March 26, 2023 @10:22AM (#35314732)
That's an interesting way to put it.
Re:The Undeniable Street View by Spooky23 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @10:03AM (#35314574)
Cults are like a confidence grift. Everyone has weaknesses, and the people running these things target and exploit them.

Smart people often make dumb choices.

Re:The Undeniable Street View by thwayunion on Sunday March 26, 2023 @11:07AM (#35315212)
> I think the parent is saying that ipso facto joining a cult means that they weren't actually 'very smart', only in appearance.

If by "intelligent" we mean the conventional thing -- learns new things easily, capable of reasoning through complex tasks, would do well in med school/law school/phd programs/finance/engineering, picks up creative disciplines quickly, etc -- then are we sure it's not exactly the other way around?

People become invested in cults and conspiracies for emotional reasons, not rational reasons, and conventionally intelligent people are extraordinarily good at post hoc rationalization. More importantly, they're often better at mitigating or managing some of the downsides (eg, maintaining good-enough status in a cult, avoiding talking about the conspiracy in certain circumstances, etc.).

At least, this has been my experience with some extended family who fell into a cult: the ones I could consider "smartest" were stuck in the cult the longest, because they could rationalize their way into an answer for everything.

Re:The Undeniable Street View by MichaelZuo on Sunday March 26, 2023 @11:17AM (#35315329)
The truly intelligent, or 'very smart', people reliably detect when they are falling for post hoc rationalizations.

At least in my experience.

Most other people make claims or may appear to be but in practice do not demonstrate it on a broad basis, as in your example.

Maybe a different terminology is needed to describe the latter case, 'selectively smart'?

Re:The Undeniable Street View by js2 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @11:21AM (#35315396)
You're making a No True Scotsman argument here, no?
Re:The Undeniable Street View by MichaelZuo on Sunday March 26, 2023 @11:49AM (#35315761)
I don't see it? You will need to elaborate.
Re:The Undeniable Street View by js2 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:04PM (#35315983)
This entire subthread seems to be an argument over the definition of "intelligent". In no dictionary definition that I can find does it exclude people who join cults. Yet that seems to be the argument being made here.

From the Wikipedia:

> No True Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their generalized statement from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly.

So I think it's a No True Scotsman argument to make to say "well, if they joined a cult, they must not have been intelligent in the first place."

But now I suppose we're arguing over the definition of the No True Scotsman fallacy and that's just a bit too meta for me on a rainy Sunday afternoon, so I'm going to go walk my dog. :-)

Re:The Undeniable Street View by MichaelZuo on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:56PM (#35316637)
There clearly exist people who can see their own post hoc rationalizations?

It's not some abstract speculation. Even HN comments often demonstrate it one way or the other.

Re:The Undeniable Street View by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @09:43AM (#35314361)
The oc likened conspiratorial thinking to other addictions like alcohol or gambling and, while not perfect, I think this is a good analogy. People don't join cults because of its reasoning, they join because the cult provides them with something that was otherwise missing in their lives, such as a strong feeling of dependent community or whatever. The intelligent mind then post-rationalizes that being in the cult is good and reasonable (even over-riding blatant evidence to the contrary). The stronger the mind, the better this rationalizing will be. Conspiratorial thinking follows a similar trend -- it is giving them something they were missing. Gambling addictions, abusive relationships, and so on all have similar rationalization processes where a person's own intelligence is weaponized against them to continue in self-destructive behavior. Humans are weird that way.