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Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by mattgreenrocks on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:20AM (#35261415)
I never understood why Christian doctrine took issue with usury until I got older. I get it now. Over time, it compounds, and that compounding ends up magnifying and consolidating power, warping things in the process. Plus, the brunt of the pain is borne by those less fortunate.

It is unsustainable.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by Kalium on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:39AM (#35261741)
You have to bear in mind that usury prohibitions quickly became entangled with power structures. Owing money to powerful people is a problem for noble or royal debtors. Owing money to people you can exile or murder as you see fit is convenient and provides multiple ways to resolve the issue.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by Pet_Ant on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:48AM (#35261866)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain

> They also had serious difficulties in recovering money lent to Christians because either the repayment term was after August 10, the deadline for their departure, or many of the debtors claimed "usury fraud," knowing that the Jews would not have time for the courts to rule in their favor.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by ineedasername on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:24AM (#35262465)
Yes, the powerful created their own “debt jubilee” at times:

“Due to the precarious position of Jews, some nobles could ignore their debts. If the sponsoring noble died, his Jewish financier could face exile or execution.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:26AM (#35261537)
This is reflected in the relative wealth of Christian vs Islamic communities, as Islamic communities religiously reject usury
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by recursivedoubts on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:40AM (#35261746)
Usury is not why Christian nations are wealthier. Usury crushed the roman empire, which is why the Christian church banned it.

A lack of tribalism and a high-trust society, heavily influenced by the Church's ban on cousin marriage, is why the west was able to become so wealthy.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by hellisothers on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:15AM (#35262304)
Where can I read about the second sentence?
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by whitemary on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:23AM (#35262454)
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism By Max Weber

OK fine, it's a slightly different thesis but it's the correct one ;)

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by hellisothers on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:14AM (#35276129)
Its weird to say but that title sounds fascinating! :D
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by whitemary on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:13PM (#35277026)
Humanity did not deserve the Frankfurt School.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by ineedasername on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:31AM (#35262611)
The idea of dischargeable debt (bankruptcy) probably helped too. People may be a lot more willing to take risks that require capital but increase economic welfare if they don’t face prison for themselves and complete ruin for their family if the risk doesn’t pay off.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by LawTalkingGuy on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:47PM (#35264583)
Maybe we'd have better businesses if you couldn't run them right to the wall and safely declare bankruptcy while keeping your profits.

There's a theory that the faster things happen, the better - where we forgive outright fraud because it's theoretically driving commerce. In my experience, badly run (or intentionally fraudulent) businesses actually kill an entire area of commerce - by cheating and often going bankrupt on suppliers who then go out of business themselves rather than being able to provide their product to actually competitive companies who would remain in business.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by ineedasername on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:09PM (#35267122)
There are some countering or counterbalancing factors here when looking at it through the lens of faster/slower.

Slower capital might mean more care and less fraud, but not implicitly. On the other hand, the velocity of capital through a system is at least one measure of its health and prosperity, and a system that deliberately tolerates a moderate amount of risk to min/max fraud/velocity is probably going to be healthier than one that errs too much on their side of either factor (at least in a very simplistic manner— of course there are many more factors and considerations as well)

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by LawTalkingGuy on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:00PM (#35277727)
Sure, like all risk analysis you weigh benefits against costs. In a general sense I don't think we're far off a decent balance.

The problem is that we seem to have entirely ignored the moral risk where some people (criminals in all but name) continually abuse the same issues. Companies intentionally go bankrupt with a ton of debt rather than trying to minimize debt when it implodes. I've seen companies buy big pieces of equipment just before bankruptcy and the machine (an excavator) was sold to pay general debts, only a small portion of which went to the seller. Management knew they were likely caput but they didn't act like it.

Mistakes can happen, but in this case it wasn't a mistake and it was incentivized - not just allowed - by our system.

If I borrowed your car and my garage burned down with it inside you wouldn't hold a grudge, but if I knowingly parked it in a burning garage you would.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by skee8383 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:35AM (#35261680)
They also function in a tribal manner where judeo christians do not, jewish and islamic communities help each other they don't have as many factions and in fighting as christians do. when a muslim or a jew opens a business they hire family and friends and people from their religious community, christians will hire anyone because that's what the christian religion is about, helping people regardless of who they are. it's very noble but in a capitalistic economic system it doesn't give christians any advantage.
[dead]
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by skee8383 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:47AM (#35261851)
I never said that. lol. but they probably don't practice it amongst themselves.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by snozolli on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:48AM (#35261867)
christians will hire anyone because that's what the christian religion is about

I get the feeling you've never lived around Evangelicals or Mormons.

Joining the right church is a long-standing method of business/career networking.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by skee8383 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:05AM (#35262171)
only my whole life. evangelicals that is. i don't know much about mormons. but the evangelicals around my era are very multicultural and allow anyone in their church regardless of who they are and they will hire anyone at the businesses they own.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by snozolli on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:53PM (#35265559)
and they will hire anyone at the businesses they own.

I don't think you realize the business opportunities you're missing out on.

They aren't exclusively hiring their own, but it's human nature to trust those closer to you. I've seen this heavily reflected in the evangelical and Mormon communities, but you'd never know unless you had insight via friends or family.

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by js8 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:29AM (#35261583)
Actually, Michael Hudson argued that even Sumerians knew that, so they had a debt jubilee everytime a king has died (and from that comes the phrase "clean slate"). Despite all the technology, we are not really much smarter today.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by prottog on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:32AM (#35261624)
> so they had a debt jubilee everytime a king has died

From this I can gather that Sumerian kings on average didn't live very long. ;-)

Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by whitemary on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:21AM (#35262420)
Or they were a good king and didn't let debt build up.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by green_man_lives on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:49AM (#35261897)
I would assume that most of the early Mesopotamian societies were the same. IOUs were the first form of currency, used for trade and bookkeeping. But after a while you'd see consolidation of wealth in the hands of a few, which would have been antithetical to the everything they knew at the time (group > individual).
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by ineedasername on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:26AM (#35262518)
I imagine that a spasm of anxiety went through every lender’s gut whenever a king so much as sneezed.
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by ajmurmann on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:40AM (#35262773)
So I would only get a mortgage when the king is young? I assume interest rates would go up with the age of the king?
Re:Banks as Collateral Damage in a Class War by pjc50 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:49AM (#35261905)
Prohibitions on usury date from a time before modern bankruptcy laws; there used to be debtor's prisons. If debt is truly inescapable (and in some places and times hereditary!), and can lead to the lender inflicting that level of consequence, usury looks a lot more scary.