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Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by kodah on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @11:15AM (#35247419)
When I was working in Afghanistan I met a decent number of interpreters and Afghani leaders that were former forced fighters. I even guarded one while he was being interviewed and jailed, he was the first of a few that I'd end up meeting. The story that sticks with me is the last one and I think will sit with me for the rest of my life.

I was back at my units "home" base where they spent most of a year. Recently US and, I believe, Georgian EOD troops were engaged in heavy fire outside of town and an IED exploded as they tried to defuse it. You hear a lot of these stories day to day so like the author I was pretty desensitized to hearing about people dying trying to do their jobs. Not a day later I was reassigned to the small jail that we had and I met a man who didn't speak English, had a gut but wasn't overweight, and who lacked any education beyond religion and farming. I kept him fed, kept him safe, made sure he had rec time, time in the bathroom etc... I could do basic communication with him through a combination of hand signals. Mostly though I had no way of having any real conversation with him.

HumInt came to visit and interview him. They had gathered his side of the story and were going back out to gather information based on what he told them. He was captured after detonating the IED that had killed the EOD troops just days before by connecting a battery to a buried cable. It became clear to me early on that this man did not have the know-how to create a projectile cone, the REX for the explosive material, or the electrical knowledge to determine the battery and wire gauge necessary to carry out this attack. I read through his jacket and understood he had lived mostly a farming life, he was devout in his religion (as most were in that area), and he had a family. The Taliban had approached him to carry out this attack, his gut was a combination of disease and malnutrition most likely which is why they targeted him. They offered him the chance to do this act in exchange for his family being taken care of.

A day or so later HumInt came back. They asked me a lot about how he was acting and I told them mostly normal, he'd been sleeping most of the day, he prayed as usual, and had asked for some religious items. They informed me that they had gone to his house with representatives from one of the units on our base and had found that his family had been killed. They had been debating on whether to tell him because he was surely going to the jail in Kabul where he would likely be hanged. They told him during the interview and I remember from that time until he left he was just mute. This will be how I forever remember the Taliban and sister groups like Al Queda.

> And yet.

> It is hard to express what it means, if you have lived under an authoritarian regime, to experience freedom. Those who have grown up with the privilege of liberty are lucky not to understand it—and the heavy price you are willing to pay for it if you have lived without it.

This sentence punches far above it's weight class.

Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by levinb on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @11:22AM (#35247511)
Thanks for the anecdote and your service. Sometimes there are situations where everyone is wrong. I just don't know what the answer is here.
Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by bo-tato on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @11:54AM (#35247977)
Why do you assume the taliban killed his family? if they go around killing family of people that do bombings for them they aren't going to find many people willing in the future. I know nothing of afghanistan but where I'm from (latin america) the US has a long history of training paramilitaries and death squads. My guess just based on that story would be US or Georgian connected paramilitary group killing his family as retribution for killing one of their own, and as a message to scare future people from working with the taliban.
Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by kodah on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @12:42PM (#35248778)
In a world of infinite possibilities it is possible, but I doubt it. I spent a year in Helmand and Nimroz. In that time I watched the Taliban attack our bases with three large, at times overwhelming attacks. I watched them gather on mountain tops as we turned bases over to the ANA and proceed to slaughter them after we left. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, I believe the stories of forced fighters who had their family members abducted and held hostage, were tortured, and the general sense of enslavement that the local populous felt under Taliban rule. You are right that I didn't, and nobody from HumInt or our sister unit watched these executions happen, but anyone thats served in or lived in Afghanistan for any significant period of time is familiar with the Taliban's patterns. Additionally, two EOD members are fairly inconsequential to the military and any intelligence community that would have to train, arm, and deploy said paramilitary units.

Additionally, in Latin America if memory serves me correct paramilitary units were used because the US didn't want to go there as a military presence for both optics and cost. We (the military) were already present in Afghanistan.

Lastly, as I said earlier as well, this one death and one attack among many. There was very little significance to this attack. EOD was doing civilian route clearance, trying to clear civilian roads of IEDs and bombs planted by the Taliban. We didn't use these specific roads so that the Taliban wouldn't put bombs on them, but they did anyway and used it as leverage on the local populous. These types of operations were part of "hearts and minds" operations. The real message from the US military was sent every year during Opium Interdiction operations where after the Taliban had enslaved farmers to produce poppy for them we would raid the Taliban opium production facilities.

Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by bo-tato on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @01:24PM (#35249406)
Interesting, thanks for sharing your experience. I don't doubt the Taliban is evil, but I don't think they're stupid. That they hold family hostage to force people to fight for them I can easily believe. That they kill the family of someone that just carried out an attack for them, and hasn't betrayed them or anything, seems counterproductive for them. As far as I understand paramilitary are part of almost all armed conflicts, to do the dirty work that isn't wanted to be associated with the official military. In some of latin america like you say the US had no official military role for optics and cost. Other countries like Guatemala, Colombia, etc the US had official military advisors present, and funding and cooperation with the official military. And then paramilitary groups also operating that are really just an extension of the official military and intelligence institutions, for doing the dirtier stuff.
Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by kodah on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @02:36PM (#35250507)
They're absolutely not stupid, but I think you underestimate the ideology that lives heavily in the Taliban. They likely believe they delivered his family to a better life.

You are right about paramilitaries, but the governor's of districts in Afghanistan ran their own militaries that are not Geneva bound. That said, in this particular part of Helmand I don't remember seeing many ANA.

Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @01:34PM (#35249554)
> They had been debating on whether to tell him because he was surely going to the jail in Kabul where he would likely be hanged

What a sad ending.

> This will be how I forever remember the Taliban and sister groups like Al Queda.

Something that amazed me was to see how fast the ANA capitulated.

Billions of dollars were spent on education and training for the Afghan army so that they could stand against the Taliban. I was expecting the population to be very happy to get rid of them for good, seeing how they were treated under their regime. And yet it only took them a few weeks to completely undo decades of work. This reeked of double allegiance. In some regions, the village elders accompanied by ANA soldiers were welcoming the Taliban and cheering for their return. No fights. Worse, ANA soldiers were seen giving military supplies to the Taliban.

Apparently, families frequently sent their sons to fight on both sides of the conflict.

Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by kodah on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @02:46PM (#35250651)
I have long sat with a post I want to publish about being a Marine during those times. I watched as President Obama and Vice President Biden told people countlessly how well the training was going, that the takeover was progressing despite generals raising internal warnings, there were messages broadcast across SIPR about troops being shot in the back during training and operations by their counterparts. I served with a Gunny that was awarded a Bronze Star with a V because when his counterpart patrol was ambushed all of the ANA ran and left them to fight off a strong contingent by themselves. The administration lied to fullfil their desires to be free of Afghanistan rather than doing the arduous work of freeing Afghanis. You're spot on about the ANA giving away supplies and doing other things, but I suspect this was out of fear and coercion knowing that they were not ready and our ROE was significantly dialed down to the point that we could not protect them.

I hesitate to publish it because, frankly, I think it'd be co-opted by the right and ignored by the left. If meaningful change is to be made for future wars, both of them need to sit up straight and listen with sober ears.

Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @03:04PM (#35250932)
> there were messages broadcast across SIPR about troops being shot in the back during training and operations by their counterparts. I served with a Gunny that was awarded a Bronze Star with a V because when his counterpart patrol was ambushed all of the ANA ran and left them to fight off a strong contingent by themselves.

> rather than doing the arduous work of freeing Afghanis. [...] but I suspect this was out of fear and coercion knowing that they were not ready

Did they want to be free at all?

To me it sounds completely alien. A regime that abducts and coerce people into fighting for them should be fought tooth and nail by the population.

Re:Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis Were Killed in the War. O... by kodah on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @03:11PM (#35251033)
I think so. They've been through generations of fighting, from internal to external, and people are tired. Religion, and the extremism of the Taliban's doctrine is also very pervasive and not something to be underestimated.

To contrast this, if you go to Kabul people wear jeans, go to nightclubs, women attend university - it's very modern and still Muslim. Most of what I've described occurs in the rural parts of Afghanistan which are predominately not served by Afghanistan's government and are thus co-opted by the Taliban and other groups.