The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.
The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.
I mean, Americans are bringing child labor back. Do you think the majority of Americans support child labor? No. Does it matter? No, because even with a Democrat (ostensibly 'left' but nowhere near in practice) in charge, American laws are moving further right than ever.
> The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.
So all my non-conservative, non-Christian, non-billionaire Bay Area tech worker friends, who are doing very well for themselves, are "taking scraps"? Come on, that's ludicrous.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Lacking self-awareness indeed.
In China, elites get disciplined by the party with little recourse.
It's a matter of which class you see yourself in.
>According to Harvard University’s large-scale 2003-2016 study tracking the evolution of public opinion via 32,000 individual respondents, at the time of the study’s conclusion “95.5 percent of respondents were either ‘relatively satisfied’ or ‘highly satisfied’ with Beijing.”
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My friend's wife's family completely disappeared because they said something bad about the local government on WeChat. Their house was empty when she went to check up on them (after COVID). Neighbors said the police came in and they haven't seen them since. She now blames herself for not bringing them to Canada.
The reason the surveys are so high is because they fear it's a trap. If someone asks you if you like the government, your answer better be an outstanding yes.
It's a very popular way for culty diaspora to cope with being rejected by their families, basically identical to QAnon.
It sounds like you don't understand your own history.
Latin America has excelled at destroying itself from the inside while blaming everything on anyone else --a national sport in most countries. Of course, the US is a favorite punching bag in LATAM.
Before you explode into "you don't know what you are talking about", my family had business in the US, Argentina, Peru and Ecuador throughout my entire young life. I lived there for years at a time. Went to school there. Was there during military rule. Etc. I know the history very well. Probably better than most natives because I was not in the grips of the intense reality-distortion-field (indoctrination) pushed onto the masses.
In fact, I call LATAM a time machine for the US.
Everything that has happened in the US over the last couple of decades was, in many forms, tried and tested in various LATAM countries before the shit ideologies arrived here. The problem here is that US students are so ignorant about the history of other part of the world that they actually believe shit like various socialist utopia stories. In a sane society people like Bernie and AOC would be laughed off the stage...because, at the very least, the shit they push has destroyed LATAM over the years.
If you want to get a dose of LATAM historial perspective and reality, take a break from ideology and watch a few presentations from Gloria Alvarez. Here's a video to get your started. This is a quick history of LATAM history starting with the "gifts" from Spain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WylR8EvhnE
It's interesting to observe that pretty much every nation conquered by Spain ends-up, well, a mess. If one is to be honest, there's something to learn there.
Regarding China and LATAM: They are going to absolutely destroy every nation they touch. They are there to own all natural resources, extract as much juice as possible from every corner of LATAM. They will destroy all industrial capacity. The next logical outcome is LATAM economically enslaved to China. You shouldn't be happy about China's involvement in LATAM, you should be horrified.
https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/china-regional-snapshot-sou...
US interventions in Latin American affairs are well documented[1].
You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. It doesn't seem you learned much from your time there, as this history is discussed openly and known in detail, from school children to people who actually lived it. The resentment towards the US is very well deserved, in most cases.
Regardless, this is not a thread about the US, so let's not feed GP's whataboutism, and keep acknowledging how evil China is.
[1]: https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm
I am stating an absolute fact:
In LATAM, blaming others for everything is a national sport. And the US is a favorite bad guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in person in the context of social gatherings, local news and even government/political party communications.
The point is they blame it all on the US. Always.
I did not say the US and other nations have no fault at all. There are subtle and not-so-subtle dynamics at play here.
It's funny how is never their fault. Ever. I guess these are all perfectly run nations and big-bad-USA comes in and fucks them up all the time. Otherwise, it's pink unicorns and bubble-gum for everyone. Right.
World politics being what they are, yes, of course, countries will take advantage of each other when possible. There is no way to claim any nation is without fault in any comparison. Today, China is taking advantage of LATAM in more ways than one...and the people actually think it is a good thing.
The other thing you have to remember is that LATAM governments have been corrupt forever. Entire generations of political families have enriched themselves and their extended circles at the expense of the people and countries. They make deals with countries like the US and international corporations and then turn-around and royally shaft the entire nation. The easiest way to explain things not working when you steal hundreds of millions of dollars and ruin the country is to blame others.
Stories abound of LATAM governments inviting external investment only to later nationalize the companies boosted by this investment and kicking the investors out. They appoint brothers, cousins, family members, extended allies, military leaders to run and pillage the companies and enrich the ecosystem that supports them. Then they turn around and blame others, the US, the IMF, anyone.
I mean, the military government of Argentina invented an entire war over islands nobody gave a shit about just to defocus from the horrors they created.
So, yes, blaming the US for everything isn't only unfair, it's stupid. These countries would have done far better over time had they made an effort to create solid lasting partnerships with the US. Quite a few of these countries could have been manufacturing hubs for world products. That requires focus, hard work, dedication, stability and more. The US and Europe would have gladly outsourced such work to LATAM nations. It didn't happen because the corruption in these nations turned them into sad circus acts everyone took advantage of whenever they could. I know it hurts to put it this way, yet this is the truth.
Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it, the only people who are going to engage with you are those who are going to ensure ROI by taking every possible advantage. And you have zero negotiating power. Once again, I point to what China is doing in LATAM.
> You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement.
Not kicking that can so Spain at all. Spain's legacy is a culture of corruption and a range of social issues Gloria Alvarez discusses in detail in the video I posted. I have not been able to find a version in English, sorry.
Maybe because historically the US has been behind a lot of things?
> Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it,
Exactly, people simply do not trust the US in countries where they have meddled in. Rightfully.
Ridiculous to make this into a sob story about people vilifying the US "unfairly".
If you observe what they are saying you’d think these are perfect societies where everyone would have pink unicorns and bubble gum, were it not for external evil actors. And, of course, the US and the IMF are at the top of the blame list.
Maybe one day you'll strike out on your own.
Y'all live in your own little reality.
Second, if you studied Logic at all (obviously not) you would understand that attacking the source is one of the fundamental logical fallacies. In other words, you have no point at all. You can't insult Alvarez and point to House.gov and invalidate what they are saying.
And, of course, calling a woman trying hard to make a difference in LATAM a "worm" is really classy on your part.
Por favor, educate porque realmente no tenes idea de lo que esta pasando en America Latina. Ni idea.
https://www.clarin.com/politica/avance-chino-neuquen-anos-im...
https://www.clarin.com/economia/the-economist-argentina-desa...
https://www.clarin.com/new-york-times-international-weekly/e...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187046541...
Etc.
Good luck with the whole "empire in decline" coping process.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Latin America? "You're ignorant, you know nothing!"
China? "You're under their sway!"
America? "Hypocrite!"
I tend to prefer to simply not allow the discussion to veer in that direction, and keep people guessing if they must.
Your other comment in this thread was even more egregious. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253829, and please don't post like this to HN.
I came back for a bit to get the latest on ChatGPT, and then noticed that, unsurprisingly, this place is crawling with demented Chinaphobes spreading whatever third-hand hearsay they can find about China. I'm vastly more knowledgeable about this subject than probably everyone here, and have tested my resources against way more capable critics, so sharing some disruptive well-chosen resources here and there isn't too hard.
The fact that the average stance here is something like "I'm not a Marxist, I don't like Marxism, I don't actually know much about Marxism, but I do know this: China isn't Marxist" is just hilarious to me.
If you actually care what China is, which it appears you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1...
On the other,
>Fidel Castro argued that “China has objectively become the most promising hope and the best example for all Third World countries,” and in August 2014, he reaffirmed this sanguine outlook: “Xi Jinping is one of the strongest and most capable revolutionary leaders I have met in my life.”
>In May 2018, Professor Yanis Varoufakis, former Greek Minister of Finance, assuaged an anxious member of the audience at a Cambridge Forum: “I have to tell you that, from my understanding of China, it’s a very interesting social experiment, in the sense that at the local level or the regional level you now have a boisterous democracy, with popular success stories in overthrowing local authorities, local bureaucrats who have been corrupt.”
>Later that same year, before his 2019 ouster in a US-backed coup, Evo Morales said “I trust China very much. China has always accompanied us in many of our aspirations in the social, cultural, political and economic spheres” and that “China’s support and aid to Bolivia’s economic and social development never attaches any political conditions.”
>In 2020 the former Liberian Minister for Public Works W. Gyude Moore bluntly wrote “China has built more infrastructure in Africa in two decades than the West has in centuries, China is also our friend.”
>In 2021 Iran signed a 25-year cooperation agreement with China. Despite the vehement insistence of Western punditry, world consensus against China’s “tyranny” fails to materialize.
https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
It's a hard choice for completely politically illiterate people, I suppose!
Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewhere that confirms your beliefs instead of (rightly) mocks them.
I don't doubt that. Trolling is fun for lots of people.
Phenomenology of Spirit (Oxford, 1979), p. 43.
It's funny how i've said everything I need to say already. You aren't as complicated as you think you are.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Edit: it also looks like your account is on the verge of using HN primarily for ideological battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which ideology you're for or against, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't do that. More explanation: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
Lest anyone think I'm scolding you out of some ideological bias: I've personally spent countless hours defending users who have advocated minority perspectives (including on China), even when they've sometimes broken the site guidelines. That's not because I agree or disagree but because I understand how difficult it is to advocate for a minority view on the internet. If you or anyone wants examples of how this has played out on China-related topics, I put some examples together for a user about a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod.
So the problem isn't that you're arguing for a minority view. The problem is that you're doing it with snark and flamewar tropes and ideological talking points. From that point of view your comments in this thread have been abusive.
[editing... one minute...]
Oh and then there's "Dang is a totalitarian liberal thought policeman", "banned every single prominent right winger", "extremely left-winged", "most people on HN are liberals", "socialist hell-hole", "this site leans left", "leftist bots", "always politically left", "skews quite left", "Obviously this website is rigged for the liberal agenda", "the level of wokeness is just absurd", "leftist ideological echo chamber", "run by radical leftists, so no surprise", and much much more! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870.
It doesn't mean they have, therefore, achieved some kind of enlightened balance.
The fact that you can cite a lot of angry right-wingers trying to pull discourse in their direction through whining just means there's a lot of right wingers posting here trying to form critical mass, as one would expect given the composition of America as a country.
You don't get more of those kinds of critiques from communists because 1) there's barely any communists here and 2) we don't argue like that.
Pretty fair modding, though. GJ.
However, "enlightened balance" is not the argument. The argument is that the left-name-calling comments are so isomorphic to the right-name-calling comments that there has to be a common mechanism underlying them. I even think I know what the mechanism is, but I'm too tired (and ok maybe a little too drunk) to type it out for the nth time. If you want to hear it, let me know; otherwise I'll spare you.
Edit: also, hold on a second: you did just argue exactly like that! ("Literally anything left-of-right-of-centre immediately gets flagged (if not outright banned by the mods)"), - which is what prompted me to dig up a few totalitarian-liberal-thought-policemans in the first place.
If so, the Wikipedia article on the event already aligns with that story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...