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Re:SVB Hall of Shame by nickff on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:41PM (#35192248)
The bank run seems to have occurred after the insolvency.

The bank was appears to have been insolvent (from the currently available information), though they avoided their books showing the fact by having bonds marked as “HTM”.

When a bank is insolvent, it’s best to shut it down as soon as possible, to avoid the bank engaging in risky behavior to ‘make back’ the missing money.

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by mbreese on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:57PM (#35192411)
Bonds that are HTM would have been profitable. They just weren't sellable for a profit on the open market (at the time they needed to sell them), because their yield was too low. So, as far as I have read, it wasn't until there was a run that they needed to dramatically increase liquidity. With so much of their holding being HTM, they were stuck. The issue was a mismatch in the timeframes (which was the fatal problem, and should not have happened).

But without that pressure, there probably would have been enough time for this to have been a much more orderly transition. The panic didn't help anyone, it just made SVB's existing problems more difficult to manage.

To put it another way -- SVB went bankrupt the old fashioned way... slowly and then all at once. The bank run was the inflection point.

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by jliptzin on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:23PM (#35192602)
But Fox News told me it was because they were woke?
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by bandrami on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:46PM (#35192296)
Not insolvent, illiquid. Calling SVB insolvent is like calling Elon Musk "poor" because his income this year was $0.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by positr0n on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:56PM (#35192404)
Illiquid and insolvent play off each other to the point that one implies the other at this state.

The only way to make back the $100 they spent on a 1.25% 10 year $100 treasury was to wait 8 more years.

Those 8 years they'd either have to become slowly become insolvent by offering their depositors 3-4% savings accounts like every other bank, or become illiquid because what depositor would keep their money in an account earning 0.5% so that SVB can keep the lights on. They had to sell and book the loss eventually.

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by manquer on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:51PM (#35192351)
It was cited to be insolvent in addition be illquid when be taken over by DFPI[1] and most observers and analysts agree .

If it were only illquid, it would be far easier to find a buyer and it would have already been sold by now.

[1] https://dfpi.ca.gov/2023/03/10/california-financial-regulato...

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by mbreese on Friday March 17, 2023 @07:18AM (#35195516)
The FDIC take over only happened after the massive amount of withdrawals/bank run the day before. Which is the nuance in the above statements... they had assets, but after selling what they could to meet immediate withdrawal obligations, the assets they had left (HTM) weren't worth as much if sold immediately than their booked value. If the assets could have been held until maturity (HTM), they would have been worth their book value.

So, only after the run did they become insolvent. The change from illiquid to insolvent happened quickly, but without those withdrawals, the illiquidity could have likely been managed to avoid an outright insolvency (probably through a sale).

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by danielmarkbruce on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:53PM (#35192369)
They were liquid. They could sell the $80 bill or so of bonds they had quickly and at fair value. Their problem was selling forced them to face the reality that they'd lost $12 or $13 bill on a wrong way interest rate bet.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by ineedasername on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:26PM (#35192626)
Under that interpretation nearly everything is liquid.

If you’re going to take a loss by selling an asset prematurely, it is illiquid. Otherwise you’d have to say things like the houses people own are liquid because the person could sell it in a day if they were willing to do so for 80 cents on the dollar.

That is not the financial world’s definition of “liquid”

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by zaroth on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:10AM (#35193004)
I have to disagree. Liquidity is the ability to sell, period. Not the ability to sell at a profit.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by ineedasername on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:44AM (#35206753)
I said nothing about profit. I can sell my house today, yet houses are one of the prototypical examples of something that is illiquid. The ability to sell something fast is not the definition of liquid. Liquidity is specifically the ease (or difficulty) with which you can sell something without taking a haircut.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:03AM (#35193348)
Nonsense.

Things one can sell at fair value in a few mins are liquid, and things one has to sell slowly or take 80 cents on the dollar to get rid of it fast (like a house in your example) are illiquid. It's a function of buyers and process, not my accounting treatment or tax treatment or whatever other treatment might make me not like the idea of selling right now.

What's next? The FX markets aren't liquid because I don't feel like realizing a gain from a tax perspective?

>> That is not the financial world’s definition of “liquid”

Yeah, it is, to us in the financial world.

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by ineedasername on Saturday March 18, 2023 @03:00AM (#35206838)
Taking 80 cents on the dollar == illiquid is exactly the point I was making. Selling quickly is a necessary but not sufficient condition to meet the definition of liquid. That 80 bil in bonds isn't liquid if they had it on the books as hold-to-maturity and took a haircut to sell it early.

>Yeah, it is, to us in the financial world.

I get the feeling we're talking around each other, your response indicates that we (probably) agree, and I'll assume it was my own communication failure, so I won't otherwise remark on this snarky & somewhat inaccurate (in its implications) comment.

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by danielmarkbruce on Sunday March 19, 2023 @05:31PM (#35223874)
>> Taking 80 cents on the dollar == illiquid is exactly the point I was making.

The comment you were replying to said "quickly and at fair value".

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by Spooky23 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:55PM (#35192390)
Illiquid to the point that you cannot satisfy your debts is essentially the definition of insolvent.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by ineedasername on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:35PM (#35192697)
No, it really isn’t. It may lead to insolvency, but that is by no means a foregone conclusion and can play out in different ways.

At a simple scale, If I own a $200k home outright and have $50k in credit card debt that I cant pay then I file for bankruptcy, negotiate with creditors to sell my home and pay the debts, and come out with $150k in assets with no liabilities. I was always solvent.

This happens daily in the business world’s bankruptcy courts. (Of course some of them are also insolvent)

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by Spooky23 on Friday March 17, 2023 @06:32AM (#35195257)
The key thing is you are not a bank required to pay depositors on demand.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by ineedasername on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:16AM (#35206616)
The math & definitions of solvency & liquidity don't change with scale. They are separate things even if the mechanics of how they influence each other put them in such close proximity to each other that some people confuse the two.

My small scale example illustrated the concept, my large-scale citation of bankruptcy courts show a bit of how it plays out in real life & validates the analogy.

Re:SVB Hall of Shame by bandrami on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:17AM (#35193435)
No, it's not
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by taxman22 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:51PM (#35192343)
SVB was insolvent.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by ineedasername on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:36PM (#35192705)
SVB became insolvent.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by taxman22 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:59PM (#35192908)
SVB was insolvent last quarter.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by remote_phone on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:20AM (#35193077)
You don’t know what the definition of insolvent is, if you believe that.
Re:SVB Hall of Shame by danielmarkbruce on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:11AM (#35193393)
There isn't an agreed upon definition of insolvent. SVB certainly was insolvent under some definitions of the word.