News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Thursday March 16, 2023 @05:39PM (#35189088)
Imagine the devastation wrought by automatic looms, that put all the weavers out of a job!

97% of jobs used to be working on the farm. Now it's something like 2%.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by moffkalast on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:11PM (#35189515)
Can't wait for the economy that is 97% twitch streamers because that's all what humans are left qualified for. /s
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by msm_ on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:24PM (#35189698)
You joke, but an economy that is 97% artists (aka content creators) sounds... good? Isn't this the utopic end goal after we automate the scarcity out of our lifes?
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by moffkalast on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:34PM (#35189824)
In theory it's great, in practice... who knows. The cynic in me would expect it to go worse than anyone could ever imagine. If everything is automated, why do you still need humans?
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by pixl97 on Friday March 17, 2023 @02:52AM (#35194072)
We have more technology and more stuff than ever, yet it seems we've accomplished about zero in solving the human problems of greed and narcissism.

Ted Faro is alive today. We just aren't sure which of the FRANK'S he's at.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by trafficante on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:34PM (#35205781)
Horizon: Zero Dawn was so compelling (to me) because of the outright horrifying plausibility of a gassed up tech CEO, convinced that software safeties were infallible, unleashes the consequences for their hubris upon the whole of humanity.

Ted Faro was a horrible human being blinded by delusions of grandeur, but he wasn’t “evil” - he was even convinced he was saving humanity by ending the threat of both war and climate change.

I don’t see GPT itself as representing a new Faro Plague, but I do see a lot of wannabe Ted Faros making the decisions at the top.

If LLMs come even close to achieving their short-term potential, we’re unleashing a bigger destabilizing force on the world than the smartphone/social media combo - and the world of 202x seems blatantly incapable of absorbing that level of disruption.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by salad-tycoon on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:54PM (#35190076)
Have you seen some of that content? This sounds like a level in Dante’s inferno, all day everyday all “these” (and myself probably ) people going blah blah blah into the either. Navel gazing to the extreme.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by jordanbeiber on Thursday March 16, 2023 @07:48PM (#35190623)
Sure, with UBI. Otherwise not so much.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by tremon on Friday March 17, 2023 @07:54AM (#35195821)
And who is going to pay those artists? Entertainment professions usually serve those who have money to spend.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by bumby on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:43AM (#35197758)
An automation tax can replace the income tax to fund social needs.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by jnwatson on Thursday March 16, 2023 @07:01PM (#35190150)
I saw a stream the other day that was just the output of an AI trained on a popular streamer’s past streams. It would select a random clip for video, respond to viewers’ comments in the voice of the streamer. It even superimposed roughly corresponding lip movements on the video.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:17PM (#35192056)
I've listed to some popular podcasters. Over time, they all run out of material and their newer podcasts are just rehashes of the old ones. I suppose AI will take over that job!
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by htrp on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:53PM (#35191849)
AI will take the twitch streaming jobs too
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by 1attice on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:21PM (#35189645)
This hoary take irks me. There were still places for human endeavour to go when the looms were automated.

That is no longer the case.

Think of it instead as cognitive habitat. Sure, there has been habitat loss in the past, but those losses have been offset by habitat gains elsewhere.

This time, I don't see anywhere for habitat gains to come, and I see a massive, enormous, looming (ha!) cognitive habitat loss.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:43PM (#35189933)
> There were still places for human endeavour to go when the looms were automated.

Your job didn't exist then. Mine didn't, either.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:46PM (#35191786)
> the same will not be true this time

This prediction has occurred with every technology revolution. It hasn't been borne out yet.

> the sort of undergrad maneuver

It's a variation of the broken window fallacy.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by 1attice on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:03PM (#35191944)
> This prediction has occurred with every technology revolution. It hasn't been borne out yet.

So what? You are performing 'induction from history', which is possibly the hand-waviest possible means of estimating what is next to occur.

Discontinuities occur. Fire gets tamed. Alphabets get invented. What went before is only a solid guide to the future absent any major disruption to the status quo. There is no a-priori reason to think that this time will be the same, either. Burden of proof is yours.

> It's a variation of the broken window fallacy.

I appreciate parsimony as much as the next academic but I'd appreciate you fleshing out your position here, so I can take it apart at the joints, in the custom and manner of my people >:)

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:20PM (#35192088)
> which is possibly the hand-waviest possible means of estimating what is next to occur

The "this time it's gonna be completely unlike anything seen before!" is much more suspect.

> fleshing out your position here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

The parallels with your theory are unmistakable. Prosperity doesn't come from jobs that are little more than make-work.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by 1attice on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:19PM (#35192566)
You still haven't stepped away from historical induction -- your argument still depends on this time not being radically different than last time. There are good reasons -- presented everywhere, right now -- to suppose that this time is substantively different. Sundar Pichai called the invention of AI the most important thing humanity has worked on -- more important than fire, or the alphabet -- and I share his view. It's out there, commonly, in the intellectual wild; you cannot, on pain of being unconvincing, simply ignore it. "Big, if true," and it very well might be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqd516M0Y5A

I propose that you invest in a more convincing line of argument. The burden of proof lies heavy upon you.

Secondly -- for the life of me -- I don't see how we got from "prosperity doesn't come from jobs that are little more than make-work" (a claim, by the way, that Keynes would take exception to) to the view that automating most of the intellectual work on the planet will have nugatory impact, or that we'll all just vy to become celebrated Twitch streamers or influencers or whatever (assuming that synthetic influencers don't take off -- oh, wait, they did: https://www.synthesia.io/glossary/ai-influencer)

Even were you correct (and Keynes wrong), the instantaneous conversion of meaningful labour --- journalism, counselling, engineering -- into, as you say, "make-work" (the position I infer you are taking) would have tremendous cost.

Need I invoke Rawls here on widely-distributed self-respect/self-esteem? It's actually one of the prerequisites, he notes, for a stable civilization; https://academic.oup.com/book/32571/chapter-abstract/2703665...

At minimum, the psychological impact of such a transition would make the developed world's COVID hangover look like a day at the zoo.

Finally, the Parable of the Broken Window specifically refers to destructive work. Non-productive work is not covered. https://finshots.in/archive/dig-holes-and-get-paid-to-fill-t.... And that is to say nothing about how economic fruits are distributed -- a whole other matter, upon which, I again infer, you have no further comment.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by 1attice on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:42PM (#35192746)
Allow me to indulge in my own historical induction.

Up until Louis Pasteur invented the germ theory of illness, it was broadly understood, across many different cultures, that disease had its origins in one or all of: witchcraft, possession, loose morals, blocked meridians, etc.

Were you to do historical induction on the spawning of illness theory, you might well conclude that no theory of illness would be scientifically verifiable. You might have argued that anyone claiming a radical change in medicine was deluded, alarmist, or simply excitable.

And you would have missed out on the multiple decades of extra health that you've had on account of antibiotics, sterile procedure, and disinfectant. Your induction from history would have caused you to miss the disanalogy.

Something to think about next time you're at the doctor.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:58AM (#35193690)
Non-productive work is exactly what breaking a window and then fixing it is, as well as doing work that is far better done by machine.

As to distribution of economic fruits, as I mentioned before, replacing labor with machines made the US the most prosperous country in history, along with the richest poor people.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by 1attice on Friday March 17, 2023 @02:30AM (#35193909)
Non-productive work is not destructive work -- again, Keynes ditches.

Your country, the USA, is very close to system collapse because of its inequal distribution of fruits. I daresay it makes good popcorn-time.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:59PM (#35199734)
> Non-productive work is not destructive work -- again, Keynes ditches.

Sorry, but breaking a window and then fixing it is non-productive.

> Your country, the USA, is very close to system collapse because of its inequal distribution of fruits.

Hardly. If the US will collapse, it's because of the current leftist swing of the government engaging in ever-increasing wealth redistribution.

> I daresay it makes good popcorn-time.

It's the equal distribution of income countries that repeatedly collapse. France is in the news currently because they've discovered that the math of redistribution does not work, and the people who cannot accept the math are rioting.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by 1attice on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:16PM (#35199977)
You could literally be hit by an asteroid and you'd find a way to blame "leftists."

Good night and good luck

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by pixl97 on Friday March 17, 2023 @02:54AM (#35194081)
Dinosaurs also survived a very long time, up till the moment they didn't.

And yea you can say that birds are dinosaurs but the transition was very messy.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by Sol- on Friday March 17, 2023 @04:25AM (#35194566)
Loved reading your thoughts on the situation in this thread, super interesting and depressing at the same time.

I wonder how long it will take politics to appreciate the deep societal problems that may soon arise. Probably it will be too little, too late.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by dgwight on Sunday March 19, 2023 @08:45AM (#35218413)
Competition still has potential for infinite growth. Even if ai is better than humans at everything, humans will be finite and will likely be better at making people with money feel important. Potentially the future economy is everyone just competing to make the wealthy feel important whether fighting their wars, worshiping at their cults, or working at their “startups”
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by veqq on Thursday March 16, 2023 @07:27PM (#35190419)
That was very bad for the weavers. Well earning middle class jobs were replaced by toiling in the mills, It then took a few generations for the work act to put a 10hr maximum workday etc.

The luddites were trying to defend their livelihoods, communities etc. It's the same rational thing people are looking at now: How to survive

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:42PM (#35191747)
Consider how expensive textiles were before weaving machines. People wore their one set of clothes until they disintegrated.

Fast forward to today. I received a solicitation for a charity in the mail the other day. They enclosed pictures of the poor kids. The kids were all wearing fashionable, spotless clothes in perfect condition.

That's what industrial textile machines gave us.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by pixl97 on Friday March 17, 2023 @02:50AM (#35194052)
And the luddites still starved to death in the street... tell me exactly what we're doing, especially in the US, to avoid the luddites 2.0?
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by nickpp on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:11AM (#35197315)
They did?! I thought they just had to learn and adapt doing something else eventually during a transition which was not very fast while also enjoying the new, better and cheaper products available to all.

Any source for those starvation deaths? I would like to learn more about what prevented them from simply doing what the survivors did.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:53PM (#35199652)
I never heard they starved, either. In fact, average life expectancy increased in this period.
Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by alexvoda on Friday March 17, 2023 @09:14AM (#35196655)
And weaving machines have not fully trickled down to citizens.

You can not easily buy a weaving machine (there are some second hand ones) or easily go to your local maker space and use the weaving machine to create the design you desire. Open source in the space of textile making is in its infancy even though there are some projects. I bet it is easier to get a low volume tape-out of some custom chips than it is to get a custom roll of textile. (you can get printing but that's not the same thing)

Textiles have become way cheaper and both higher quality (when demanded) and lower quality (cost saving fast fashion) and available in far higher quantities.

Some things were lost in this transition.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by WalterBright on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:52PM (#35199643)
A basic loom isn't hard to make, any semi-competent carpenter could make one. That's what people did before weaving machines.

I've seen people use them to make rugs and things for sale in gift shops.

There's nothing stopping you from doing this.

Re:Anyone else witnessing a panic inside NLP orgs of big tec... by alexvoda on Saturday March 18, 2023 @07:04PM (#35214099)
That medieval era technology can still be manufactured at an individual scale was not my point.

My point was that access to the technological advancement has not trickled down and that this creates an imbalance of power.

Compare how easy it is to get a custom textile (not a custom print) made to how easy it is to get a custom PCB made (it is reasonably easy to etch a double sided board and multi-layer and flexible ones can easily be ordered online). The situation with regards to knitting is somewhat better.

Saying that a "a basic loom isn't hard to make" in a world of high speed air jet digital looms is equivalent to saying that perf-board still exists in a world of SMD components.