News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by bacchusracine on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:12AM (#35182230)
>many GPL violations are resolved through non-legal means, such as negotiating a license agreement or reaching a settlement outside of court.

And IMHO this is killing the license. Companies are doing the calculations and determining that by the time they get caught they can just negotiate at best and at worst just ignore it and drag things out until it realistically no longer matters. Without teeth no one will follow their obligations.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by toyg on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:32AM (#35182498)
> IMHO this is killing the license.

Some people say GPL is dying because nobody use it due to its terms.

Some people say GPL is dying because everyone use it but nobody follows its terms.

The truth is in somewhat in the middle. There is more GPL adoption out there than people think, but respecting terms is a nontrivial effort. Some infringements are done in good faith and resolved equitably once noted, but detection as a whole is undoubtedly difficult, and we only see the negative headlines when it happens. That doesn't mean the license is dying; in fact, it's doing the opposite: helping people out there building software in the open, and taking to task businesses that don't play fair. We just have to accept that success rate will just never be 100% compliance, because legal constructs never reach that.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by indymike on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:36AM (#35182571)
> respecting terms is a nontrivial effort.

This is true of almost all contracts. If respecting terms was easy, we'd have no needs for lawyers and courts.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by andrewxdiamond on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:52AM (#35183575)
It’s quite easy to comply with the MIT OS license
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by tpxl on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:30PM (#35184277)
You'd think so, but people fail to do so often.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by toyg on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:37PM (#35184414)
I mean, it's much less trivial than other licenses. Let's look at the scenarios here:

- John Dev takes a bit of MIT/BSD licensed code. He drops an acknowledgment in the About screen (which nobody will ever read), and that's it. (yes, many still fail to do it...)

- Jane Dev takes a bit of (L)GPL licensed code. She has to add the license file to the installer, so the installer people start asking questions: "is this an eula? Should we display it on install?" Jane clarifies that we just need to ship it, but now Legal is in the loop. Legal goes "it says here that we have to provide stuff on request, does that mean all our private code?" Jane explains how she carefully used it in such a way to avoid that scenario; half of the explanation goes above the head of every lawyer in the room, so some of them trust her and some don't. Let's assume it gets greenlit, now we have to talk to the website folks to put a link somewhere - but Legal are still on the case: "ah, but we don't want to make it too easy, let's just have an email." Who's going to monitor that mailbox? Can you do it, Jane? Legal goes "no, Jane is technically not responsible for distributing, let's loop back in the release managers". Release managers don't want to hear it, they already have enough shit to shovel. By now half the people have gone on holiday one or more times, there are more urgent fires to put out, and the thread is forgotten. Product ships. Jane moves on to found her own startup. The product will likely be infringing for years, which may or may not ever be detected.

I love the GPL and I wish everyone used it and respected it, but it's not easy to live with it.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by deathanatos on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:17PM (#35185036)
It's "less trivial" compared to the MIT license, sure. But compare the GPL to any proprietary license, such as the ones Lego probably slaps on their own software, and suddenly the GPL is fairly simple, relatively…
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by aflag on Thursday March 16, 2023 @02:37PM (#35186333)
Some proprietary licenses are complicated, like oracle and vmware. But most of them you just pay and you're set. Even with those two it's still sort of like that. But even then they will just threat to audit and you could pay them off there as well.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by deathanatos on Thursday March 16, 2023 @05:12PM (#35188730)
No, they're not? "pay and you're set" to do what is the question, then.

IANAL. Let's take VSCode as an example. At the very least, the license:

1. permits data collection on your machine.

2. restricts the user: no reverse engineering, no disassembly, no decompile. No alteration of any "notices" from MS (or others). No distribution (…ish, there are some exceptions? it's complicated?).

3. a $5 limit on damages, which is … interesting.

And to be fair to MS, I think this is one of the shorter and clearer proprietary licenses that I've found. But it is hardly "pay and you're set". (Hell, "pay" — the price is free^W your data, here.)

But a further part of the complication is the mere distinction of proprietary-ness of the license. The GPL is the GPL, and once I've read it, and made a decision on the terms of it, a piece of software can signal its license with "GPLv2" or such, and I can essentially get a cache-hit on my legal interpretation of the license. Every proprietary license is a cache-miss, and is thus immensely more time consuming to process.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by eadmund on Thursday March 16, 2023 @06:34PM (#35189821)
> respecting terms is a nontrivial effort

Is it? Just give users the same source used to build the binaries.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by its-summertime on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:41AM (#35182653)
In both of those situations, don't the companies end up paying more (to lawyers) than if they open-sourced in the first place?
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by frognumber on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:38AM (#35182601)
My experience is that 95+% of businesses will follow GPL obligations, even without teeth. The <5% bad actors are a problem, but that doesn't negate that it mostly works.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by balefrost on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:21PM (#35184118)
My experience is, for businesses who pay attention to open-source licenses, they will avoid GPL libraries like the plague (GPL applications are usually fine, though there's sometimes some skepticism).

But not all businesses pay close attention to open-source licenses.

I have to assume that scale has something to do with it. Huge companies usually take that pretty seriously. Tiny companies... eh, they might not even be aware.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by avitous on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:45PM (#35185422)
Concur on this about avoidance. From my own experience at a startup years ago, the corporate counsel was pretty much hostile to any GPL libraries being used in the companies product, and was especially hostile to the AGPL, categorically refusing to support use of anything using the latter.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by throwwwaway69 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:35AM (#35182551)
If I was a billionaire this is the sort of thing I'd fund. Like the EFF but specifically for open source developers and projects.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by a2800276 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:43AM (#35182676)
Luckily you can fund the EFF now, all without having to become a billionaire!
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by throwwwaway69 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @04:25PM (#35187977)
Already a member :)
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by kube-system on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:48AM (#35182749)
A foundation, just for free software? https://www.fsf.org/
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by bionade24 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:10AM (#35182967)
The FSF says they only care about the GNU project license violations. https://sfconservancy.org/ has an actual record of fighting against license violations.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by seabass-labrax on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:13PM (#35183945)
GNU generally requires that contributors assign their copyright to the FSF, which is what allows the FSF to litigate; they can't do this for software that they don't hold copyright to. The Software Freedom Conservancy, on the other hand, holds partial copyright to each of their many member projects' software and chooses to actively enforce the GNU GPL on that code quite frequently.

The SFC's ongoing case against Vizio in California[1] appears to show that violators of the GNU GPL can be sued by users, not just copyright holders. If this case sets precedent elsewhere in the USA and even in other countries, then organisations like the FSF and SFC will have far more options in what violations they choose to litigate. However, this also opens up the risk of 'GPL trolls' who might not be motivated by the same principles[2].

[1]: https://sfconservancy.org/press/vizio-coverage.html

[2]: https://www.fsf.org/licensing/enforcement-principles

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by pabs3 on Friday March 17, 2023 @03:03AM (#35194131)
Such trolls could only get GPL compliance, not damages though? So not much incentive for them to become trolls at all.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by pabs3 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:39AM (#35183353)
Conservancy do GPL enforcement and you can donate:

https://sfconservancy.org/donate/

Their lawsuit against Vizio is especially interesting:

https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by kube-system on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:16AM (#35182273)
This is just the way the legal business works normally. 95% of civil cases settle before trial because lawyers know the law, don't need to go to court to know what is going to happen, and handle it more efficiently between themselves.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by scotty79 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:34PM (#35184355)
Only in US and UK and such. Anywhere else it would indicate a severe pathology of justice system.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by vkou on Thursday March 16, 2023 @12:55PM (#35184685)
Why? Settling out-of-court is a win-win for everyone.

If it weren't a win for both sides, the side that feels like it got the short end of the stick would opt for court.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by dmoy on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:14PM (#35184972)
On the other hand you have Brazil, where there's like 1 active lawsuit for every two people in the country.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by kube-system on Thursday March 16, 2023 @01:36PM (#35185292)
The fact that people are able to remediate disputes without resorting to escalation indicates a high level of maturity of the legal system and legal profession. Third party remediation is a result of a failure of both parties to work out a solution amongst themselves. A legal system where both parties know and agree on the law is a success, not a failure.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by scotty79 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @03:48AM (#35207048)
By analogy if people manage their own illnesses without engaging health service should be a testament to the level of maturity of health services in USA.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by kube-system on Monday March 20, 2023 @09:52AM (#35231495)
I think people in healthier countries in fact do consumer fewer healthcare services than those in the US.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by Loic on Thursday March 16, 2023 @02:32PM (#35186251)
In Germany most of the cases are settled outside of the court but with the help of a court judge.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by cptskippy on Thursday March 16, 2023 @02:55PM (#35186584)
> Companies are doing the calculations and determining that by the time they get caught they can just negotiate at best and at worst just ignore it and drag things out until it realistically no longer matters.

You're giving companies way too much credit. Unless a company has been sued for something, they often have no insight into or awareness of it. Most companies do not have strict policies around using GPL or OSS. The legal, audit and compliance teams are only aware of things when it's brought to their attention.

Our company is very good about accessibility and ease of use in our products, but only because someone used the ADA to sue the shit out of us a decade ago.

I would wager that most GPL violations are made by folks who are consciously aware of what they're doing, and the companies they work for are completely unaware that such decisions are even being made. There's no actuary running the numbers and saying "yeah go ahead and violate it, litigation is cheaper than compliance", that's tinfoil hat level thinking IMO.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by pabs3 on Friday March 17, 2023 @03:05AM (#35194138)
Conservancy have said in numerous talks that we are well past the age of unintentional violations and well into the deliberate violations era, where companies just stall and stall and stall.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by cptskippy on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:16AM (#35197396)
> where companies just stall and stall and stall.

That's a legal tactic regardless of initial intent or guilt. If you thinking waiting someone out is cheaper than losing or settling, then you stall. It puts a financial burden on them.

I'm not saying it's right, and it's also not an indicator of guilt, malice, or forethought.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by pabs3 on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:05AM (#35206564)
Sure, but this is after they have shown to be violating.
Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by cptskippy on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:34AM (#35209913)
And? Being shown evidence you committed a crime or breached an agreement doesn't prove malice or forethought.

Additionally people seem to think of legal contracts and licenses as being set in stone or non negotiable. In the legal world they are simple the starting point for any negotiation.

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by pabs3 on Sunday March 19, 2023 @03:30AM (#35216829)
Copyleft licenses, at least when Conservancy enforces them, are definitely non-negotiable:

https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/principles.htm...

"Our primary goal in GPL enforcement is to bring about GPL compliance. Copyleft's overarching policy goal is to make respect of users' freedoms the norm. The GNU GPL's text is designed towards this end. Copyleft enforcement done in this spirit focuses on stopping incorrect distribution, encouraging corrected distribution, and addressing damage done to the community and users by the past violation. Addressing past damage often includes steps to notify those who have already received the software how they can also obtain its source code, and to explain the scope of their related rights. No other ancillary goals should supersede full compliance with the GPL and respect for users' freedoms to copy, share, modify and redistribute the software."

Re:Lego violates GPL by keep Blender-based BrickLink Studio ... by cptskippy on Sunday March 19, 2023 @07:18PM (#35224834)
If anything, that encourages the stalling behavior since losing means full compliance without negotiation.

Again, I'm not supporting or encouraging the behavior. This is just the reality of the legal system.