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Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by muzz on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:49PM (#35130763)
The market cap of SVB on Friday was $6 B

The amount of uninsured deposits was $150 B

The value of all the stock is 4% of the amount of uninsured deposits

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by Godel_unicode on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:09AM (#35130932)
First, since we’re comparing numbers to each other, you should go back before Wednesday to get a real number for pre-run market cap, it’s about 2.5x that. Not that it really matters.

Second, just so we’re clear is your point that the holders of that $6B-$15B of useless paper won’t care because it’s less than $150B? At the end of the day, you don’t care what percent of the bag you’re holding, just that you’re holding it.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by RhodesianHunter on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:35AM (#35131121)
Their point is that the value of equity is insignificant to the upper class, as compared to the value of the uninsured deposits.

IE the equity isn't enough to leverage political capital. The deposits are.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by svnt on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:53AM (#35131245)
No, the point is that shareholders of the bank are investors in the bank, and investment comes with the risk of loss. Depositors in a bank are not investors in that bank.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by yawpitch on Monday March 13, 2023 @03:12AM (#35132201)
> Depositors in a bank are not investors in that bank.

No, they’re not. But until just now depositors in any other bank assumed the risk for any deposit in excess of $250K… and if these depositors weren’t morally different than the depositors that would absolutely have lost their wealth in excess of $250K when their chosen bank did a stupid thing, then they’d have paid the piper just like you and I would have.

These special depositors are getting special treatment and aren’t suffering what countless non-special depositors have suffered… the rules are changing because of who took the risk, that’s the very definition of moral hazard at work.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by mattbillenstein on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:53PM (#35130786)
What is the shortfall once all the assets of the bank are sold though? It's not like anyone is putting $150B into this to make sure those deposits are made whole.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by Phlarp on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:07AM (#35130914)
You can't say that right now, I'm not sure anyone can. The government is literally writing a blank check because they don't yet know how much it's going to cost to fix.

Everyone seems to be operating under the idea that while their liquidity came into question the underlying assets were and are strong-- if that were true they would have found a private sector solution early in the weekend. Waiting until 6pm on Sunday and a second regional bank collapsing to announce "oops, all bailouts!" seems like an open admission we're in the early stages of another banking crises.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by mjevans on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:57AM (#35131683)
As far as coverage has stated so far, the underlying assets ARE solid...

Problem is they're just not even a good investment compared to brand new fed bonds / bills of short / long (might have that backwards) due to the now MUCH HIGHER interest rates. They locked in at historically low rates, and had a bank run on their free reserves.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by heisenbit on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:55AM (#35132053)
But then the coverage has mentioned also CMBS. An if you think about those, think about Covid and think about SV remote working…
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by tetrahedr0n on Monday March 13, 2023 @05:28AM (#35133196)
I'm sorry, I don't follow the logic here. Do you mind elaborating?

I see some correlation between SV remote working and COVID, but don't understand how mortgage backed securities play into this. Are you suggesting higher inflation on the way, lower property values, higher rates, and that it was intentional?

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by friendzis on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:17AM (#35131819)
> the underlying assets were and are strong-- if that were true they would have found a private sector solution early in the weekend

One does not follow the other. The triggering problem here were unmatched maturities of assets and liabilities, i.e. liquidity crunch. They have created that liquidity by selling some assets at a loss and tried to recoup that loss from investors.

But that was not the problem. The problem was now-imminent bank run, potentially requiring up to ${total-deposits } liquidity injections and unclear future then. Once VCs told their portfolio companies to pull out svb was effectively toast.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by loandbehold on Monday March 13, 2023 @04:14AM (#35132619)
Bigger bank with more cash could have bought them, fixing liquidity issue. This didn't happen, suggesting that there's problems with bank's assets, not just liquidity.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by friendzis on Monday March 13, 2023 @04:31AM (#35132747)
Yes and no. There were 4 stages in this drama. 1. Build up where books became imbalanced 2. Imbalanced maturities draining liquidity 3. Liquidity issues being prominently voiced causing bank run 4. Aftermath.

Once the situation evolved from stage 2 to stage 3, the liquidity hole expanded from ${gap-in-maturities} to roughly ${total-deposits} and that is only to contain immediate issue, fixing books would have possibly required additional capital.

You are probably right, a bigger bank with liquidity could have saved SVB at stage 2. However, the situation evolved from stage 2 to stage 3 too quick for any meaningful deal to take place while still in stage 2.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by femto113 on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:13AM (#35131804)
Nobody has to put in anything other than confidence. Given enough time the bank already has plenty of assets--the whole point of the feds saying "all deposits will be made whole" is to stop the panic withdrawals and thus obviate the need to sell those assets.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by ericd on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:01AM (#35130874)
The amount of the potential losses on the uninsured deposits was a very small fraction of $150B.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by vintermann on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:30AM (#35131880)
Was it? I think I read somewhere that this bank had an unusually large share of depositors over the deposit insurance limit, or in other words a high share of uninsured deposits.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by lordnacho on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:51AM (#35132027)
Yes but that doesn't mean they would lose everything over the insured limit. If I owe you 1M but only have 950k to give you that's a lot better than having only 100k, in which case you'd end up with 250k.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by yawpitch on Monday March 13, 2023 @03:26AM (#35132287)
Ok, but assuming the numbers above are correct, 150B in uninsured deposits - 5B in market cap firesale = 145B that SVB apparently didn’t have the cash on hand to repay.

If every depositor walks in first thing Monday morning and withdraws their bad bet in their (apparently single) chosen bank’s management, the customers of all other banks are now on the hook for 145B… which ultimately means everyone on the planet can expect to pay more for their haircuts.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by lordnacho on Monday March 13, 2023 @04:30AM (#35132733)
Huh, are the assets only trading at 5B? I thought it was much closer to 150B?
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by jsjohnst on Monday March 13, 2023 @10:02AM (#35135842)
No, GP is just foolishly conflating liabilities and assets and bank deposits and enterprise value among other issues if you read this and their other comments.

tl;dr - GP doesn’t have a clue what they are saying.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by jsjohnst on Monday March 13, 2023 @08:54AM (#35135052)
With the number of ELI5 guides all over the internet on the SVB situation, this level of willful ignorance you displayed here is just sad. Seriously, stop talking out your arse and go educate yourself, even a little, first.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by yawpitch on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:26PM (#35137975)
Well, you seem like a thoroughly pleasant ~human~ being to be around.

Let’s just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by deepsun on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:02AM (#35130875)
Better count "enterprise value" than market cap, as that's the price the company is worth.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by BlueTemplar on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:12PM (#35137772)
What is the difference and where can you see it ?
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by deepsun on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @07:26PM (#35176089)
Here is full info: [1]

As I see it, market cap/valuation _should_ resemble the price you'd need to pay to buy a company, but it often is not. E.g. a company has marketcap of 10B, but has 30B in liquid cash on hand. It's clear it cannot be bought for 10B. Or the other way around, the company has 30B in liabilities -- the company should pay you 20B to be bought.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/enterprisevalue.asp

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by vehementi on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:50AM (#35131229)
Why would you directly compare those two numbers? It owes all those deposits to other entities.